With some revelations about the First Imperium and that era coming out slowly, it has gotten me thinking about Larissa (after all, what heterosexual male DOESN'T sometimes think of Larissa. . . ). The main area of question is: When exactly did the Oracular/Hedonistic 'split' in the clericy begin?

[NOTE: I am doing this from memory as I forgot my hard drive with the books at home today]

Our first bit of information comes in terms of the old story of the formation of the Vals. In the story, Larissa--wishing to see all the trials and tribulations which will befall humanity and the Gods--saw too far in the future. What she saw drove the dimure oracle of the Gods to madness, which if we believe the image given to some in a particular 3rd Year Soft Point of the 3.5 campaign, led Illiir to send down the Valinor of the Gods to anoint some of humanity with their powers while consoling the weeping and broken Larissa. It is from this story that we get the foundation of the Val families.

But what about Larissa herself? From this story, Larissa fell into madness right at the dawn of the First Imperium of Man, as records that we have seem to indicate that the Vals were around right at the beginning of that empire. We have references to this in the Dynastic system reported to be used in the Imperium, where the various Val families were restricted to no more than three consecutive rulers before another family had their opportunity to sit on the Throne of man (ie: 3 val'Assante's, followed by 3 val'Sheem's, followed by 3 val'Holryn's, etc). We also know from the story that the 'chosen of Nier' was killed during the Gods War, which means that the Valinor intended to anoint that individual instead anointed both of his children--Emman and Virdan--with the Val powers of Nier instead. This last indicates that the formation of the Val families was no more than a single generation following the end of the God's War.

So, Larissa was mad for at least the last 6,000 years, which gives plenty of time for 'her' followers to also fall into hedonism to escape her madness. That said, as far as I'm aware there have been no references to 'hedonistic' Larissans at any point prior to the 'modern age' (that being the period of time following the formation of the Coryani Empire). As stated, I do not have my books, mods, etc handy, but the fact that almost all of this aspect of Larissa seems to stem from the modern time seems interesting to me. All references to Larissa dating back to that time, such as her Gift to Mankind (as revealed in both the Codex Arcanis and expanded upon during the Kickstarter) have focused on her Oracular and Fate aspects.

Well, one area where this might have started was right in the last few centuries of the First Imperium (after some 3,000 years of existence as I recall). We know that the First Imperium fell into decadence leading up to the time of the Theocracy of the Cleansing Flame (or, as the Erdukene would call it, "the Reign of Imperator Leonydis, the First of the val'Virdan Dynasty"), which could simply be an aspect of an ancient culture having grown too rich and too diverse to adequately govern itself, its bureaucracies too bloated, and its wealthy TOO wealthy. That said, what if it was, in fact, an aspect of Larissa's turn to Hedonism? There seem to be stories of the Valinor being far more prevalent in the days of the First Imperium--side by side with the Gods still 'walking the earth', so maybe Larissa's madness and fall into Hedonism affected the masses by proximity? Maybe her Valinor also fell into this, and did much the same thing if it wasn't from Larissa herself? We know that, sometime during the First Imperium, Manetas (the Pride of Illiir) began meddling in the affairs of Man, using his Valinoric influence to sway mankind (which ultimately led him to be locked away in Nishanpur for a few millennia), so we know that Valinor can exert more than a little power over the population.

And what of the Vals of Larissa? Well, we know that her Valinor spawned two separate lines: the val'Sheem and the ul'Shi (nee: val'Shi). Of these, we know that the val'Sheem existed during the First Imperium as I recall reading (in Canceri?) that the val'Sheem were the ruling Dynasty during some major point in the history of the First Imperium. The val'Shi/ul'Shi are less well known, but unless the Valinor got baby-happy sometime after the Khitani migration to their current lands, it is a fairly safe bet to assume that they were also in power at that time. As the Bloodline powers (and to a lesser extent, Cants and Heritage Spells) give a glimpse into the worship of the God who spawned the Val line (and Cants), let us look at these two groups to see if maybe there is evidence of Hedonism.

Well, looking at the val'Sheem, it looks like they were ALL about the Hedonism from the Get-go. After conferring with Mr. SamhainIA, he confirmed that five of the bloodline powers (though, you could strongly argue "In Wine There Is Truth" isn't necessarily Hedonistic) seem to focus on love, lust, and other aspects associated with Larissa's Hedonism. Furthermore, a lot of the Cants and Heritage spells used by Larissans and val'Sheem seem to further support the Hedonism primacy through their line, meaning that her Hedonistic aspect was in existence when the Cants of the Pantheon of Man were laid down (though not necessarily actively used or taught at that point). Furthermore, when Henry revealed some information about the ul'Shi on the old boards, he let us know that they were also strongly affiliated with Larissa's Hedonistic aspect. While the val'Sheem seem to focus on carnal lusts, the ul'Shi seem to focus on gluttony and giving into desire, mentioning that the ul'Shi tend to be large (as we saw at the Origins '13 LARP with ul'Shi Dao), sumo wrestler-types who--on special holy days--would even indulge in forbidden feasts by becoming cannibals. With this evidence, how could the First Imperium NOT have been rampant with the hedonism brought forth by Larissa's madness?

Alas, there has been recent evidence that Val Bloodline Powers may not--necessarily--be what they seem. I recently brought forth an issue that I found with the val'Abebi: That being that since the 3.5 days they have been able to manufacture Blast Powder with their Tier V Bloodline Power "The Blast" (or their Level 4 power in the 3.5 days). While this seems fairly benign, the Altherans have only had access to the Second Gift of Althares for the less than 1,000 years (given during the Coryani period, as I recall). Hell, even their FIRST Gift wasn't given until just before the Time of Terror! Henry has stated that there is no disparity with the rules, saying that "f the val'Abebi weren't able to create Blastpowder until the Second Gift was granted, then why would you expect them to have that ability PRIOR? That's like saying someone from the Colonial Period should have the Car Driving skill, because a modern man has it."

This means one of two things: 1) The val'Abebi had a 'wasted' Bloodline power for the majority of their history, or 2) the Bloodline Powers have changed with the whims of the Gods (or their Valinor). While #1 is entirely possible, that seems like a serious storytelling issue to me, and while I adore Henry's universe (he's even let me play with his toys now and again), this doesn't seem like something he would do. This means to me that #2 is the more viable option. There is even some evidence to support Val families 'changing' due to the activities of the Gods and the Valinor: The Storm. During The Storm that followed the attempt by a few adventurers to penetrate the Citadel of Silence, a Valinor of Hurrian that was bound there was killed, and another released. These actions caused a continent-spanning storm, and resulted in all the val'Tensen to 'loose their cool', becoming far more tempermental and quicker to anger (possibly being a major reason for the current state of affairs in Almeric. . .).

So, if Bloodline powers (and temperaments) can change with the times and the efforts of the Divine, can we really view the val'Sheem and the ul'Shi as true 'evidence' of the Hedonistic aspect being worshiped in the First Imperium? Personally, I don't think so. That said, I find the question of Larissa's Madness and Hedonism even more intriguing with the possibility that the val'Sheem and ul'Shi have changed over time as their patron has fallen from her original aspect.

But what about the Khitani and the Bastionites, you say? The Khitani Empire and the City of Bastion are both nations that are/were ruled by Valinor of questionable 'fallen-ness.' Both of them rule their lands with something resembling a tight fist (from what we've heard of Khitan, anyway, and definately for Bastion), and both should have a direct line on what the God's WANT as the proper aspect of Larissa to be worshiped. That said, the two nations seem to take almost completely different angles when it comes to Larissa. As stated above, the ul'Shi (and presumably other Larissan's there) are all in for the Hedonism aspect, and to the best of our knowledge the Sleeping Emperor has done nothing to stop this. On the other hand, we have references in Legacy of Damnation that Xabal does not accept the Hedonistic aspect of Larissa, allowing his followers to only venerate her Oracular aspect, suggesting he thought the Hedonistic aspect was bad, or even heretical.

Of course, this could all be politics and personal blindspots. As powerful as the Valinor are, they are known to not be omniscient (though this calls up some issues for the rectitude of the Judgement of Nier, but I digress. . . ). The Sleeping Emperor stays 'asleep' for years, probably decades at a time, only passing laws and edits sparringly. Perhaps the Sleeping Emperor is allowing the Larissans of Khitan enough rope to hang themselves, or that their debaucheries and gluttony isn't a big enough issue to warrent his/her notice. On the other hand, Xabal is an Illiirite Valinor, and we know Illiirites tend towards the ascetic lifestyle, so perhaps he merely finds Hedonism unbecoming of the Children of the Gods? Hell, perhaps he ignores it to keep his people disciplined in face of adversity, or to attempt to 'dissuade' them from going to the Infernal City of Pleasance just down the coast of the Sea of Tears from Bastion?

Well, I'm a fair bit into this, and I still haven't actually 'solved' this question. Having said that, I think it is fair to say that the rampant hedonistic aspect of Larissa seems to have come by after the Gods War, maybe by the Theocracy of the Cleansing Flame, and definately by the foundation of the Coryani Empire. This indeed seems like a case where it is only growing--either by politics or by 'divine force'--over time, however.

After the Godswar I believe Larissa was still basically the Demure Maiden, and oracle to the gods. This is when most of the val lines were created and the First Imperium was founded. The usual write up that I remember for Larissa in the early imperium goes something like, in the prosperity that followed Larissa looked further and further afield for potential mishaps to the Imperium, to be nipped in the bud. Pushing her powers to their limit Larissa saw "entropy/oblivion" and dived head first into physical sensation to deny or escape from what she had seen.

Some text has linked this to the time the First Impeirium decayed and corrupted from within ... probably including a weak Heirophant and Imperator who were ripe to be removed by Manetas and ultimately leading up to the Theocracy of the Cleansing Flame. During this time in the Late Imperium is when I believe the Hedonist Sect shows up.

According to Deopholus in Whispers in the Dark, Illiir tried to console Larissa and say both that it was only one possibility and that the Pantheon would fight this end. According to the Love of Illiir in A Host Divided the PoM left to "deal with entropy" shortly after the collapse of the First Imperium...probably right after the Godswall was raised and the dwarven enclaves received visitatons from Sarish and Hurrian etc.

The party line is that the Gods haven't been heard from since. But as the sage Nerius has pointed out, time flows faster the further you get from the Universe's Core so if the Gods are heading to the outermost edges of creation, one day for hem may equal more than 1,000 years on Earth.

Still that does leave the question of where did the Second Gift come from ... or why the Bloodline powers of he val'Abebi work the way they do. Does Altheres have a secret cell phone with *unbelievable* reception (yes even here I hear you now)?

My only issue with that is where the Vals fit into the timeline. Unless I'm mistaken, it was Larissa's visions which led to their creation at the dawn of the Imperium, and if the vision happened near the 'end times' of the First Imperium there are CENTURIES of error in the time. It is possible the vision happened as you suggested, but it doesn't jive with my understanding of the timeline.

You presume a linier time line.

Linear

I think it has been theorized about multiple trips through time, based on the testmony of the (hostile) khiafree and that might be a lazy answer it still fits well

Consider it my prayerful homage to the temple of Pedro lesser deity of typos.

OOC. If enough of us start misspelling things, will Pedro get a shrine in an upcoming hardpoint?

He already has a whole town (of gnomes) dedicated to him!

Or it could be that as an immortal, he knew Larissa for thousands of years before she went insane. It's possibe that many who knew her before she dived into hedonism loved her the way she was, and seeing her and her followers persuing self-destructive tendencies bothers them when they remember her they way she was.

do i?!?!

This is a question which I've debated a couple times, and this is me fishing for a more official answer:

Is Eldritch and Elder magical ability genetic (or otherwise inherent to the person), or is it a learned trait?

We know that some magical abilities are genetic, such as Psionics, where any Val CAN become awakened, but most lack the discipline to make use of their Valinoric heritage to its full extent. We know some magic (specifically Cants/Divine) can be taught, as these spells are basically 'canned' magic that anyone who says them properly, has enough force of will (Charisma) and has the appropriate faith in the Gods who (are supposed to have) wrote them. Additionally, Primal spells (to me) seem far more like the traditional D&D "Pray for spells" as you are channeling the power of some other being in order to gain access to magic.

But what about Eldritch and Elder magic (and, to a great extent, the Sorcerer-Priests of Sarish)? Can these individuals be taught like Divine casters in their magics? Are they born with an inherent ability to manipulate the Arcanum like Psionics? Are they something else entirely? The details in the book are a bit short of my desired level of 'conclusiveness', which means that this has become fodder for arguments, debates, and the musings of a certain Canadian fan of Nierite priests.

First, let us look at the original 3.5 interpretation of how casting worked in the Arcanis universe, as it is from this now almost-forgotten age that we get the modern tropes of Arcanis. In these halcyon days, the inherent ability to manipulate the Arcanum (as represented by Sorcerers and other 'spontaneous' casters) was a trait granted to an individual by having the blood of a higher power within them. For Dwarves and Vals it was Celestial, Dark-kin it was Infernal, and all sorts of others (Elorii, Kio, Pengik, Undir, Naori, etc) have an Elemental flavour which gave them the ability to manipulate the forces of nature and creation and bend them to their will. Other beings (notably Humans, Half-Orcs, and such) did not have this inherent ability, so the only way they could manipulate the arcanum was through intense study, thereby becoming Wizards.

Looking at this, it seems likely that it is possible for ANYONE to become an Arcane Caster with enough study, a balanced breakfast, and at least a bit of a force of will. However, this brings in the ever-present spectre of the Arcanis world--the Sorcerer-King of Ymandragore. We know that this fine (very tall?) gentleman has come to the world and has deemed that everyone with the arcane "Spark" are his domain, and he seems to have made no separation between Sorcerers (for whom the spark is 'inherent') and Wizards, for whom gained their powers through study and possibly a '80's style montage. Hell, we also know that they also tended to pursue groups like Shamans, Hedge Mages, and Adepts, which in the 3.5 days were also Arcane(ish) casters. This means that the Sorcerer-King had an interest in not only those who WERE arcane casters, but those who have BECOME arcane casters.

The question this raises is thus: If anyone can become a caster (as seen with the Wizards), then why does the Sorcerer-King need Harvesters? If anyone can become a caster, why doesn't the Sorcerer-King simply send all his citizens to Ymandrake Hogwarts and turn them all into wizards, removing the need to have to send agents out to steal other people who have shown the spark?

Well, there are two options that I can see here: 1) The Sorcerer-King is doing exactly that (training his own people), and also sending out his agents to capture anyone ELSE who shows magical ability because he had deemed himself lord of all magic, or possibly that he wants to deny the use of mages to the mainland powers, or both; or 2) That the "Spark" of the Arcane ISN'T something that you can get with Hopes and Dreams, and that it is indeed something that someone is born with, and that some beings (Sorcerers) have an easier time manifesting and manipulating than others (Wizards, who need to train up rather than just do it naturally). I personally have always believed the second option, and it is that paradigm that I will use to discuss the rest of this musing of mine.

So, leaving those Dark Days of 3.5, we now find ourselves in the beautiful fields of the ARPG rules. Here, we have ANYONE who wants to being able to take the Arcane Archetype, regardless of race. Sure, only Vals (as playable races) can take Psionics, and there is stuff about mental processes which limit which way you can go for Eldritch and Elder, but overall there is no 'heritage' limitation as to who can gain fancy, non-Religious and non-selling your soul, means of gaining this power!

But, returning to the original question, how do they do this? Well, there are numerous things which both support and deny that these skills are learned skills. First of all, let us look at the casting Attribute used in the three major "questionable" Arcanum sources: Eldritch Magic uses Logic, which represents intelligence and the ability to problem solve; Elder Magic uses Resolve, which represents determination and a willingness to persevere through a problem; and Sorcerer-Priests use Charisma, representing the force of the will and personality. Based on these, it definitely seems that the Eldritch magic seems to fit the "You can learn this" mentality, since it uses the person's intellect to manipulate the Arcanum. On the other hand, the other two use Attributes which, to me, seem far more. . . inherent than learned. You can make a case either way for Resolve, whether it represents their ability to push their natural ability to the fore or if it represents their willingness to study the depths of magic, but Charisma (to me) represents a more inherent ability than a learned one.

The most direct source we have (in character) as to the nature of these different types of magics is the fluff bits in the ARPG at the beginning of the Codex of Magic section (pages 341 to 344). In this section, it spells out the various sources and at least some of what makes them what they are. Here it states that Elder Magic is a deliberate arcanum which requires years of study and understanding of the core theory behind magic to cast its spells. This makes it more powerful and more. . . varied than other sources, but correspondingly slower as the practitioner needs to effectively do the long-form metaphysical math in their head. To me, this implies that it requires a lot more learning to do than Eldritch magic, which according to the description is the 'fast and dirty' form of Arcane magic. From the descriptions given, the differences between these can be summed up by how I know a lot of people do carpentry: An Elder Caster would take the time, measure twice, and--even if it take some time--will get the perfect final product, while an Eldritch Caster will look at the wood, measure with their fingers or by eye, and get done much faster, but with a higher failure rate (or, at least a more awkward final product).

From this fluff, I personally feel that the two casting attributes should be switched, but that is neither here nor there. From this description, I would rule that these two forms of magical casting ARE learned, and not inherent in the person. However, if you look at the path "Apprentice Arcanist" in the Codex of Heroes, it fairly plainly points out that a certain 'spark' is needed for this, and that those with the Spark have to be trained to fully use their powers. This, in my opinion, states that it ISN'T something that everyone can do, and while teaching is required to fully make use of the powers, there has to be something unique about the person (a bit more close to the gods, be it by heritage or simply born with the power?).

And of course, the monkey wrench in any situation is the Sorcerer-Priest. These people, as stated in the ARPG, are halfway between the Arcane and Divine. It is stated that they are TAUGHT Eldritch magic, however, adding more credence to the idea that that form of magic is something which can be learned and not something that someone must be born with. That said, Sarishans are big into the "If the Moons are Right" method of determining who should be a priest, so maybe they are able to find individuals of magical talent and then train them, rather than allow any random guy to know their cants, spells, and magical traditions.

Anyway, this was originally meant as a short question for PCI and the community, and turned into something way too long already, so I will leave it here for people to discuss.