From talking with Paul and listening to others, there appears to be two general lines of discussion going on in parallel.
1) Magic is more powerful than martial maneuvers/fighting styles. It's hard to refute this at a large scale, but in general, it is something that almost every system has struggled with. I think D&D 4e was one of the few systems that really balanced the two in terms of 'scale'. Regardless of how you viewed the game, it was clear that a magic using character and a fighter had powers that were a lot more close in power than most other games. Outside of a few spells that really just can't be duplicated by mundane means without a huge suspension of disbelief (Teleportation, Invisibility, etc.), the disparity between damage, status effects, and affecting multiple targets really shrunk in that edition. In Arcanis, the combat maneuvers and fighting styles for higher tiers really need some improvement to apply more status effects/debuffs or do more damage. Combined with the maneuvers that target multiple creatures could really go a long way towards this.
In addition, I think Martial Characters (and Martial Only) should have more options such as maneuvers or Talents to let them delay or reduce recovery on maneuvers. My other post has a proposal for a unique Talent given to Martials that reduces Recovery on Advanced Maneuvers by 1 for Martial Characters. Also I assume that casters know that they can't Delay Strain over and over again and after the first use have to do something else, cast through it (taking damage) or spend Fate to remove it?
2) The second issue being discussed appears to be whether Experts are overpowered with the ability to take the same Combat options as a Martial or gain casting like an Arcane/Divine. That's the one I'd like to address with some character building examples.
ASSUMPTIONS: A) For simplicity, I'm not taking into consideration Race, Nation or Path specifics that would give Talents or Melee, Ranged, or Arcanum Skills. Those are so varied special cases that should augment a core Archetype / Background build. B) I'm assuming a stat of 5 (d8) in a secondary ability and 7 (d10) in a primary ability, regardless of combat or casting. C) I'm assuming a character will Max out the Skills needed for their role (Arcanum, Melee, Ranged) or those given by advancements to really focus D) I'm limiting Background choices to those that even improve casting or combat, since that's the main focus of the comparison. E) I'm considering only the "Any 2 Talents", "+1 to All Trained Skills", and "+1 to 3+Passive Logic Trained Skills (using 6 skills)" Advancements. Variations are possible for specialized builds.
ARCANE CHARACTERS Character Generation (Tier 1.0) Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Arcane Spell Casting I Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 2 Weapon Training Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat) Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth, 2 Lore Skills. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.
Advancements Fixed Talents: Arcane Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Arcanum Talent per Tier Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything. Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Stealth, Deceit, 3 Lore Skills (They get more Lore Skills with the advancement but can't keep them all maxed) Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Lore Skill.
Summary: An Arcane Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Arcanum Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Stealth, Deceit, and 2 Lore Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier - Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Lore Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.
DIVINE CHARACTERS Character Generation (Tier 1.0) Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Divine Spell Casting I Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Deity), Weapon Training (Deity) Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat) Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 1 Combat Skill, 1 Social Skill. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.
Advancements Fixed Talents: Divine Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Devout Talent per Tier Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything. Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 3 Social Skills Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Social Skill. However, due to having a Combat Skill from archetype and the appropriate background, it's easy for a Divine Character to keep a Combat Skill at roughly 2.5 Ranks / Tier (12 Ranks over 5 Tiers)
Summary: A Divine Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Devout Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, and 2 Social Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier - Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier, potentially Medium or Heavy Armor, and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Social Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.
EXPERT CHARACTERS Character Generation (Tier 1.0) Core Talents: Adaptable (Most choose this), 1 Skill Talent Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 3 Weapon Training (2 Nation / 1 Any) Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat) Maxed Skills: Any 6 non-Combat/non-Arcanum Skills (Arcanum/Combat only with Adaptable).
Advancements Fixed Talents: 2 Skill Talents Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything. Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Any 6 Skills Variations: A) Combat Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat, they will need to dedicate 1 Talent / Tier to Weapon Mastery (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to a Combat Skill. Obviously, focusing on more than 1 weapon takes additional Talents and Skills. B) Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill. Both of these options leave 1 Talent / Tier to spend on non-Skill Talents and 5 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. The character can have the basics of either combat or casting, keeping maxed skills but lacking the extra Talents that go to really expanding the casting options of the Caster or the combat flexibility of the Martial. A+B) Combat Focus with Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat and casting, they will need to dedicate 2 Talents / Tier to Weapon Mastery and Spell Casting and 2 Skills / Tier to the appropriate Arcanum and Combat Skills. This option leaves only 2 Skill Talents / Tier and 4 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. While the character has the basics of both combat and magic, they differ from a Caster learning Combat or a Martial learning magic by 1 Skill Rank / Tier in the associated combat or casting skill.
Summary: Experts focus on Combat can keep 1 Combat Skill maxed and gain Weapon Mastery (I-V) with 1 weapon without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. Those who focus on Magic can keep 1 Arcanum Skill maxed and gain Spell Casting (I-V) without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. In either situation the character is as competent as either a Caster or Martial but lacks the breadth and flexibility of either. The Expert can gain that flexibility but at the cost of talents and/or skills devoted to being a better skill character. - Duel Focus: Experts can focus on both Combat and Casting wit Weapon Mastery (I-V) and Spell Casting (I-V) but at the cost of using all the non-Skill Talents and 2 Skills / Tier. This will impact their usefulness as Skill characters and does not give them the breadth or flexibility of either option. This type of build has the same capabilities as a Martial Archetype taking casting, or a Caster Archetype taking combat but is 1 Rank / Tier ahead of those builds.
MARTIAL CHARACTERS Character Generation (Tier 1.0) Core Talents: Advanced Armor Training and 2 of Die Hard, Leadership, or a Martial Technique Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (All Nation, ~8), Weapon Training (All Nation, ~12) Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat) Combat: 1-2 Maneuvers, 1-2 Weapon Mastery I Maxed Skills: 6 Combat or Physical Skills, and potentially Heal.
Advancements Fixed Talents: 2 Martial Techniques and 2 Combat Talents Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything. Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): 6 Combat or Physical Skills Variation: A) Magic Focus: If a Martial wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill. This leaves 1 Talent / Tier for anything, and 5 Skills for Combat or Physical Skills. The Arcanum will be 1 Rank / Tier behind a full caster or Expert choosing casting. This should be sufficient for many good buff spells or base spells. Summary: A Martial Character easily can get 1 Weapon Mastery (I-V), 10 Maneuvers, and a Fighting Style (I-V) over 5 Tiers. This leaves 10 Talents to further enhance combat or devote to skills or magic. - Magic Capabilities: Now has full, flexible combat maneuvers with several weapons and an Arcanum Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get full Spell Casting (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Physical or Combat they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for additional non-combat skill ranks.
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Whew, I hope this all makes sense. I think there is room to give each Archetype something 'special' and limited that other Archetypes can't poach. I also think Magic right now overshadows combat at the higher tiers. However, I don't feel that the Expert archetype is the 'god' it is sometimes made out to be. They are flexible, yes, but that flexibility means they can't be as fully capable in either magic or combat like those archetypes can.
I'm open to discussion around what I've posted and hope that my analysis is at least factual.
John
_________________ - John Bellando
Kelb'Bakari Masalio, Dark-kin Altherian Corsair, Gentleman Archaeologist, and Wandering Bard "The highest compliment an Altherian can pay you is to shoot you with his flintlock. It means you were worth the expense."
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