Hat wrote:
At the core my biggest concern is will players of every archetype be able to shine and feel like they really made a difference by having their character in the mod? Every player wants to feel useful. This usefulness should be inherent in the system, not dependent on the specific player. Balance comes in many ways.
I agree 100% with what you are saying here and is at the heart of some of that fixes (
Link) that I've recommended (With an eye towards your input as a matter of fact).
Hat wrote:
By design, Martial archetype characters are focused on combat. Their martial techniques and most if not all of the combat talents have no use outside of combat. In terms of skills outside of combat, their option are Acrobatics, Athletics, Ride and Stealth. Of those, Stealth is also core to Arcane and completely available to every archetype. There may be some physical challenges, but in my experience these don't come up often or can be circumvented through other means such as spells. They in effect have 2 Any Talents and skills at 2 ranks / tier at most to define all of their other options for contribution outside of combat. It is matched and exceeded by every other archetype. All out of combat concepts are as easily if not more easily replicated by every other archetype. If their in combat contributions were or are where they will truly shine compared to the other archetypes, then at most they need a bit of touch up around the edges. Gaining a social skill such as intimidate perhaps.
I think you've summarized this very well. The only thing I caution is when you say their options outside of combat are limited, that just means the skills they can keep at 3 Ranks / Tier with Archetype Advancements. Nothing prevents a Martial from branching out at 2 Ranks / Tier into other Skills in order to be competent. It probably wouldn't make sense for the Martial Character to try to become the party "face", but there's no reason a Martial couldn't have 2 Ranks / Tier in Streetwise, Perception, or a Knowledge Skill in order to be more well rounded. They just won't be as good as the characters with 3 Ranks / Tier. I think you've mostly covered that, but wanted to make it clear for others reading as well.
In addition, you've listed some great Skill Talents for Experts. Here are some great Combat Talents that aren't just for in combat but also help with exploration dangers and other problems: Advanced Training, Armored Fortitude, Battle Hardened, Callous (Tiered), Danger Sense, Die Hard (Tiered), Hunter, Quick Draw (Tiered), Steadying Word, and Toughness. To draw a comparison with your argument below, there are at least 8 Tiers worth of Combat Talents that provide some out of combat utility or usefulness.
Improvements: I've mentioned a few improvements to help polish the edges and I agree with your assessment there. A unique ability to reduce Recovery times on advanced maneuvers I think would be very appropriate (Particularly given the "new" changes that I'm not sure most knew about). In addition, I would move some skills to a new category called: Wilderness Skills - Beast Lore, Tracking, Wilderness Lore. Then give Martials those choices with their skill advancement as well so that a character could make a 'ranger' style character as a Martial. Intimidate and Heal could also be added. This helps round out Martials.
Hat wrote:
Casting can be done with a heavy combat or non-combat focus. Most commonly there's a mix with the adaptations running the gamut. There's enough flexibility skill-wise for the Arcane that it's hard to say there's a set direction. There are plenty of options. The Divine archetype is more limited skill-wise for non-combat to social and god-specific skill plus knowledge religion. It's a bit more of a box and I think that's part of the reason there seem to be less archetype players for them. That and there are so many ways to gain full DSC that it's less critical. Again spell-wise they can be useful here. By themselves spells give them a chance to shine as it allows them the opportunity to do things that no one else can. More reasonably based on spell selection, they will shine more in or out of combat, but with the number of spells they get over the tiers they will be able to cover both.
I personally would remove some of the current "Lore" skills into other areas, notably Streetwise, Wilderness Lore, Tracking, and Larceny. This would still allow Arcane Archetypes to have a wide range of 'knowledge/lore' skills without delving easily into the realms of Experts and Martials.
Hat wrote:
Experts can pick anywhere to shine. There is a risk of overlap for non-combat with one of the other archetypes depending on the build. There isn't a skill base they can't shine as brightly in as any other. They need to pick where they want that to be.
This is the one thing I want to provide an opposed view on. While it's true that there is no skill that an Expert cannot shine as brightly as any other, the opposite is true. There are no skills that Experts have that another archetype cannot have just as high or higher, other than Artisan, Appraise, and Perform. What this means is that in a group of 5-7 characters, whatever skills the Expert has maxed are likely maxed by someone else (Arcane for Lore, which currently includes Larceny and Streetwise; Divine for Social Skills; Martial for Physical Skills). It's rare to be in a group where the Expert is the only one with a particular skill. If Experts are designed to 'shine at skills' (Which I would wager was the original intent), then they need to be allowed/able to do that. I believe one of the reasons that many Experts have moved into focusing on combat or casting is that their supposed advantage in skills is not being realized (This was indeed the case for Kelb's change from the original character to what he was after Codex of Heroes).
Hat wrote:
Looking at talents they're more flexible for roles than any other as well. There is a significant list of combat useful skill talents including:
Acrobatic, Adaptable, Back-to-Back, Born Leader, Campaigner, Evasion, Exploit Weakness (Tiered), Leadership (Tiered), One With the Shadows, Quick, Sabbatical, Steadying Word, Stealthy (Tiered), Tactical Awareness
Even ignoring Adaptable and Sabbatical which give ranks in skills and the Leadership based talents there are at least 15 tiers worth of combat useful skill talents. Stealthy can be argued against though it can be used to set up ambushes and is a prerequisite for One With the Shadows. This also doesn't include ones that are more tangential like Loyal Companion to have something else fight for you. I also left out Prestidigitation.
I'll be honest with you, I'm not sure why some of these Talents are "Skill" Talents and not "Combat". In particular, Campaigner should be Combat, while Quick and Leadership in my opinion should also be "Combat" Talents in addition to "Skill". BTW, Tactical Awareness is Combat, not Skill. The rest are very clearly "Skill" oriented though several have use in combat as well. If there are truly 15 Tiers worth, then a character is never going to be able to learn them all, but it does give options, which other characters are able to taken with 2 Talents / Tier advancement.
Hat wrote:
Unless an Expert goes for a 1 Talent advancement, they should pick up 2 new skills every tier, granting them even more usefulness in and/or out of combat depending on what they add. Depending on the concept, the number of added skills could double to 4 new per tier. These extra skills allow them to at a minimum add spaces where they can shine even if their standard spots are taken by other players. These extra skills are still in addition to the other advancements. An expert isn't locked in at character direction to their specialty.
I've already pointed out the Skill problem. Unless some of those new skills / tier are unique to Experts (or at least Skills another archetype couldn't have had maxed), they aren't going to make the Expert shine. They are going to help round out the character for future tiers. Those new Skill Ranks at 2 Rank / Tier are going to be the same Ranks as a Martial or Arcane/Divine's 'cross archetype' skills, and likely only get raised 1 Rank / Tier after that.
The same argument about adding spaces can be said for the Skill Advancement of Arcane/Divine/Martial. Even if the Martial isn't going to be the party face, their other skills at 2 Ranks / Tier help flesh them out and add spaces where they could shine if those skills aren't taken by other players.
All Archetypes are only able to keep 5-7 skills maxed, regardless of how many they are allowed to pick. Experts aren't able to keep more skills maxed than any other Archetype, they just have more '1-2 Ranks / Tier' skills than other archetypes.
Hat wrote:
So, getting back to the original core question - where does each character contribute and shine?
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
I think the intent was something along the line:
Arcane:In Combat: Arcane Spell Casting, Knowledge (Creatures)
Out of Combat: Arcane Spell Casting (Utility), Knowledge Challenges, Research
Divine:In Combat: Divine Spell Casting, Secondary Fighter (Tank or Damage)
Out of Combat: Divine Spell Casting (Utility), Social Challenges, Spiritual Guidance
Martial:In Combat: Primary Fighter (Versatility: Tank, Damage), Physical Challenges
Out of Combat: Physical Challenges, Keeping the Party Safe [I would like to see "Wilderness Challenges" added to this list, with new skill categories]
Expert:In Combat: Secondary Caster, Secondary Fighter, Knowledge (Creatures), Physical Challenges (Pick any 2-3)
Out of Combat: Challenges based on the Character's Focus (Pick 2-3) [I would like to see "Rogue Challenges" added to this list, with some skill category changes to Streetwise and Larceny and a few others]
That's just my view...
John