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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:30 pm 
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Location: Southwestern Ohio
Yeah I was thinking of Artisan as well. We don't have Craft or Profession like 3.5 so Artisan would seem to be the only option. Wilderness Lore would help in determining what sorts of wild game and plants might be useful to cook as well as avoiding those that might be poisonous/toxic.

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Haakon val'Ishi, Beltinian Exorcist 2.7 [Divine]
Ursula val'Holryn, Grand Master of the Tralian Hammer 2.2 [Martial]
Arun of Tultipet, Holy Champion of Neroth 1.10 [Expert]
Rikitsa val'Holryn, Psion 1.9 [Arcane]


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:21 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Nierite wrote:
...snip...During the reign of Emperor Calcestus val’Assante’, the Emperor (who was at that time being heavily influenced by Manetas, the fallen Pride of Illiir) erected a statue of himself even above those of the Gods of the Pantheon. At the time, this was viewed as the cause of the fall of the God’s Wall to the North, and during The Storm of a year or so later, the statue was destroyed (or at least heavily damaged) by the pelting of divine-inspired hail. For years, it was assumed this was done by Calcestus as an act of hubris, but when Manetas finally revealed itself (himself), the nature of the statue was finally revealed: The face of the statue wasn’t that of Emperor Calcestus val’Assante’, it was the face of Manetas, which had a distinct family resemblance. This suggests that it is the VALINOR which dictates (at least to an extent) the appearance of their Val progeny. If this is so, then all the subsequent (human-kin) val’Sosi should homogenize over time.


I acknowledge this is a possibility but I'm not totally sold on it either. For one thing, in the future possibility where I remember it is "revealed" that the statute is supposed to be of Manetas, the face has worn away with time ... though it is said to the PCs that they were not meant to gaze upon perfection. I think the statute was really supposed to be of Cal.

I much prefer the idea that the reason why vals within families look so much alike is the simple fact of inbreeding. The need to keep producing more vals (with powers, psionic and secular) rather than mere humans almost demands inbreeding in the new rules. Just because I prefer this line of (somewhat icky) reasoning doesn't make it true. But it does help explain someone like Emperor Quoron val'Dellenov or any one of a dozen val meat-heads who make spectacularly bad decisions in Arcanis' history.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:57 pm 

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funny, there is another statue of manetas, in the "spear of the loghin " adventure except it was actually manetas

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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:39 pm 
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Well, I've been working on this essay for the better portion of a week now, and I think I've gotten it into a somewhat coherent piece. Please note: This is not exhaustive as I decided to cut it off where I did because I figured I could write MANY of these and only scratch the surface.

So just how Roman are the Coryani?

This is a question that I have been contemplating for quite some time owing to 1) my playing of a Coryani character, and 2) as a writer of adventures. As much as I love the works of Mr. Lopez, and though we have a decent amount of information about the societies of the nations of Arcanis, there is a lot of blank holes in the culture and society of the various human nations (and non-human nations) within the universe. This is mostly due to the fact that he is one man, and unless he decides to subcontract out his universe to others, there is only so much writing that he can get done. However, he did us one favour when it comes to interpreting his vision in that he assigned to many of his nations a real-world analog from which we can gain at least some insight beyond that which he himself has written. In Milandir we have a Germanic nation, based on medieval knightly ideals such as chivalry, and in the Coryani we have the Roman Empire.

But, as the question above goes, just how Roman is the Coryani Empire? Well, we know that they use a lot of Roman traits and tropes. They organize their forces into Legions, Latin is used as the basis for High Coryani, there is a difference between Patrician and Plebian (noble and commoner) classes, and many other tropes which carry over. That said, due to the mechanics of the universe, there is a lot which ISN’T the same.

For one, the Roman Empire had its origins as a Republic, and a fairly . . . insistent one at that. The Romans actively opposed the idea of a King, or a Tyrant, or the accumulation of power into one man or family, with the name “King” being used in the same way that “Dictator” or even “Terrorist” is used today among the Western nations. In pursuit of this, the Romans—at least the ruling Patrician senatorial class—made ambition as the primary driving force of their society. All Romans of Senatorial rank wished to make a name for themselves, winning victories, owning land, and fighting to be the top of the political heap in the position of Consul. It was this lust for glory and power and to make a name for themselves and their families which was what helped push Rome into its position of dominance of the Mediterranean region. This fell somewhat by the wayside when Rome transitioned into its Imperial period, where the ruling Patricians and their senate was supplanted by the Emperor, but there was still a cultural imperative to expand the Empire, win glory, have Triumphs (big parades meant to show off all your victories), etc.

The Coryani, on the other hand, were never a republic. They have always been descended from nations with Kings and Queens and Emperors. In fact, the only portion of its Empire that WAS based on Republican or democratic ideals was the region of Altheria, and that was a fairly small (but powerful) force within the Coryani territories at their greatest extent and power. Similarly, the power struggles between the various ‘noble families’ seemed much less prominent due to the near monopolization of power in the Arcanis universe by the Val families. Unlike in Rome, where it was entirely possible that you could come from nothing and earn a spot of power, the Vals have been the hereditary rulers of all of humanity from the time of the Gods’ War, and there has never really been a need for them to really have much in the way of ambition to attain power for their families within the Empire (or the Kingdoms and other regions which preceeded it). Their right to rule was guaranteed by the Pantheon itself, and who was going to question the Gods?

So, what about ambition? Without the need to make a name for themselves and to bring honour to their Clans in order to upstage their rivals for what might have been perceived as a finite amount of power. There are some instances of this, such as when the val’Dellanov family managed to wrest control of the Empire from the val’Assante’, but for the most part each family had its own domain, and the overall hierarchy of the families fell in line with the Divine source of their power. Throughout recorded Coryani history, the val’Assante’ ruled because they were the scions of Illiir (head of the Pantheon), and therefore had the Divine Right to rule, while the other families maintained their own holdings, sent Senators to the capitol, and generally maintained an almost feudal control over their possessions and territories.

That being said, not all Vals were created equal, and it appears to be relatively common for Vals to have been born in poverty, even in a world where their very blood makes them nobility. One way to rationalize this is that, like some of the more prolific regal houses of Europe (and presumably other areas of Earth), there was a main branch from which the ruling line was held, and satellite branches started by younger siblings and those who never inherited the official titles such as King of Naeraanth or Emperor of Coryan. As the bloodlines of these families was extremely apparent, owing to the rather homogeneity of the Val families in appearance and powers, these side branches couldn’t just fade into obscurity as politics and influence waxed and waned. The further you are from the ruling line, the fewer opportunities you have to better yourself, and the fewer opportunities you have to win glory. What must have happened was, not able to pay their debts or earn the influence they wanted, at least some of these Vals must have either been sold into slavery (which is almost unthinkable!) or somehow found themselves ‘demoted’ in class because we know there are common-born Vals out there. Maybe these Vals of minor lines of the family were criminals, and that is how they were demoted, or were disowned by the more powerful Val lines of their families because of some indiscretion and maybe even exiled from their family’s holdings, effectively forcing them into the Plebian and commoner classes (depending on the nation.

However, the Vals who somehow lost their ‘noble, patrician’ status weren’t without hope. Unlike in Rome, there are two Patrician classes within Coryan: The normal, vanilla Human Patricians, and the Val-family Patrician Imperialis. All a Patrician family needs to do to be ‘upgraded’ to Patrician Imperialis is marry a Val—even a common-born Val—and they are instantly upgraded in the social hierarchy. Presumably, this newly (re)created Val Patrician Imperialis has been sufficiently distanced from the ruling lines of the Val families in their great feudal holdings, but this has not been particularly well established for lack of need thus far.

But what, you may say, is the role of the humans in the Coryani Empire? As it stands, there is a monopoly of power held by the Vals, and the Patricians seem to be fairly minor players in this stage. Part of this, we can draw a connection to the Roman institution of the client, or vassal. Basically, as Patrican families in Rome acquired power and lands and estates, they had numerous families belonging to other social classes which owed them favours and whatnot. One historian has compared the Patrician class as basically being Godfather-style Mafioso. We know that the Val families have their vassal families of humans, and that a significantly portion of these Vassal families are Patrician class in the Empire. As such, instead of being the ruling class in their own right, the Patricians are simply more of a landed nobility, occupying the ‘middle ranks’ of nobility which would be more akin to the Equestrian class of Rome (those being the rich individuals who were raised above the Plebians either by wealth or—later—by military service) than the Senatorial class of the Roman Republic. Later in the Roman Empire, the Patricians had lost much of their power as the Senate became a less-important organ of the government as the Emperors consolidated power in their own offices, which is also a similarity between the Roman and Coryani Empires, where the Coryani Senate seems to be a much less powerful body than it was in the Roman Republic, but seems to serve a similar role as a prestige assignment. As a Canadian, I draw attention to my own country’s senate, which is effectively stacked by the Prime Minister at the time with their political cronies and other partisan appointments rather than it being representative of any actual constituency.

So, if the human Patricians represent the powerful, rich, but ultimately politically ineffectual class, what about the other social classes of the Coryani Empire? Well, we know that the Coryani Empire has its own Equestrian Class—named for the fact that they made up a large portion of the cavalry used during the Roman Republic as they could afford a horse—which would have been the equivalent of the Roman middle (or, at least upper middle) class. These were individuals who came from money, but were not from the Patrician class themselves. They typically were the business owners, traders, and other entrepreneurs which sprung up in the Roman Empire as, though the acquisition of wealth was important to any Patrician, the acts of commerce and trade was viewed as beneath them. A REAL noble inherited his money, and his assets consisted of property, not through trade! In the Arcanis game, the Equestrians are also a monied class, but are not counted as any form of nobility. They cannot become Tribunes or Legates or (presumably) hold high office in the Senate, but are functionally Plebians/ commoners. They may be RICH commoners, but there doesn’t seem to be any advantage to their actual title aside from having money.

So, at the top of the heap in the Coryani Empire we have the ruling Val lines (the val’Assante’ of Illonia and the Empire, the val’Sheem of Cafela, etc) as the pinnacle of the Patrician Imperialis class, followed by the non-ruling Patrician Imperialis and the normal Patricians which form the upper crust of society (more as ‘old money’ and historical aristocracy than direct ruling lines as the Senate is—at best—coequals to the Coryani Emperor in Coryan rather than the ruling body of that nation), followed by the Equestrian order of monied commoners. But what about the common people? These commoners are known as Plebians in both Rome and Coryan, and functionally they seem to be effectively the same. In fact, the only difference seems to be that in Coryan, the Plebian class seems to include what the Romans would have called the Equestrians as well as just the Plebians. I make this point because we’ve seen super-rich individuals in the Empire who are notably NOT Patricians in the storyline, but they are not described as Equestrians.

The final class is that of Slave, and to be honest, I cannot think of a single example which makes a Coryani slave different than a Roman slave. If anything, I’m shocked by how FEW slaves have shown up in Coryani-based stories in the Arcanis universe, with a far more insistence in using the more relatable Plebian- and Equestrian –level individuals, with Slaves made to be little more than window dressing. We have instances of many Freedmen in the story, including the “Former Slave” background in the game, which means that the position of the slave is alive and well in Coryan. Additionally, while people view Slavery through the eye of the sensationalism associated with American slavery, by and large the Coryani treated their slaves the same way we would treat a car today, or a dish washer: While some individuals abuse their slaves, torture them, etc, most individuals would treat such a valuable possession, keeping the slave healthy, generally happy (if not free), and safe.

So what about upwards mobility within the system? Well, we know that Slaves can be freed, making them free Coryani. Additionally, in Rome we know that Plebians can move up to the Equestrian class if they gain additional money (and have Patrician or Imperial connections) or if they work their way up to the rank of Prefect of a Legion (3rd in Command), with Prefects typically ‘retiring’ into the Equestrian Class. Reading the fluff of the Equestrian background we also know that the rich Equestrians—upon reaching a certain amount of wealth—could be inducted into the Patrician class, and that Patricians could become Patrician Imperialis by marrying (and presumably, breeding with) a Val of ANY birth. So what are these social classes in Coryan? Overall, the differentiation between Plebian, Equestrian, and Patrician appears far less rigid then it did in Rome, with intermarrying between the classes not only not unknown, but encouraged in the case of Patricians wishing to bring their bloodlines into the Imperialis class. As such, instead of thinking about the Coryani having social classes per se, I think the actual distinction is more akin to Lower, Middle, and Upper class in a modern society. This may be a relic of the fact it is being made by a person and group with a modern, American social perspective for other people with a modern, American social perspective, but it is a separation between Rome and Coryan. That said, in Coryan the only people who can vote and hold office are those of the Patrician and Patrician Imperialis class, so maybe not that free. . .

What about citizenship? Well, during the Republican period immediately leading up to Julius Caeser’s time, the only people in Rome who had citizenship were those from Rome. Even their Italian allies who had been ‘Roman’ for decades, even CENTURIES, but they were not included in the Roman social hierarchy. They were not able to join the Equestrian Class, they were not able to join the Patrican class, and they had no representation in the People’s Assemblies or the Senate. In fact, the desire for the Italians to gain Citizenship in Rome was one of the root causes in the destruction of the Roman Republic. By the time of the Empire, Citizenship was spread more widely, with some of the Provinces of the Empire represented in the Senate (as disempowered as it was) during the Imperial period.

But what about Coryan? Instead of being an Empire that was conquered, the Coryani Empire was founded almost as a Confederation of allies under the First Emperor (and later, the val’Assante’ family of the city of Midea Tridueae, later named Old Coryan), so was there ever a period where people were NOT citizens? Well, we know that Milandir raised Legions and had Senators, and in modern times there does not seem to be any policial difference between an Illonian, a Cafelan, and a Balantican. As such, Citizenship (and the right to assembly, legal protection, and all) seems way more widespread in Coryan then it did in Ancient Rome. In fact, the only ‘conquered’ territories that weren’t provinces at the formation of the Empire seem to have been Abessios/Toranesta/Myrantia, Eppion in the Western lands, and some parts of the Hinterlands. To that end, there was never really the citizenship issue with places like Altheria and Milandir, and arguably even Canceri (though the Nierites probably lost theirs when they were banished to Nier’s spine from the rest of the Empire), and all these were “core” Coryani Provinces.

So, what else is “Roman” about the Coryani Empire? Well, we know that they use Legions! Alas, these legions seem to have a different genesis as the ones used by Rome, and how close the legions are is subject to debate (see the Chronicler’s Board for more on that). The short form version is that Roman Legions were created by Rome to be all-Infantry formations, utilizing heavily regimented formations with large shields and fast short swords. This came in handy against the Greek forces which dominated the Mediterranean during the rise of the Republic, where there were large formations of phalanx troops who do well against mounted troops, but long pikes don’t do well against Infantry who can use large Tower Shields to take the ranged hit from a pike, and when cheek-to-jowl, nine-foot pikes are next to useless. Combine this with a nearly professional military (it later became fully professional), good Generals spurred on by the ambition said earlier, and a willingness to adapt tactics on the fly, the Romans conquered the Mediterranean region.

For centuries, Roman armies were also mostly made up of property owners, mostly of the Equestrian and Patrician classes as property ownership was necessary for citizenship, and they felt that if you weren’t a citizen, you had no stake in the system (this changed before Julius Caeser as Rome was running out of landholders to arm, so common Romans were recruited and then GIVEN land). It was also a prevailing attitude in my readings that a lot of Mediterranean cultures (particularly the Greeks) did not like missile warfare (archers specifically), considering it ‘effeminate.’ The manly way of warfare was to get up close and personal, stabbing them with a spear or a sword! Though they were able to out-professional and out-skill many other cultures, the Romans seemed to hold a similar opposition to archers, keeping archers and slingers and other ranged weapons into auxiliary and militia troops that were attached as needed while the Infantry heavy troops marched on, and the Patrician and Equestrian cavalry acted as flankers. This eventually came to bite Rome on the ass with the increased use of Heavy Cavalry tactics, as the Legion block was not effective against heavy horse (ironically, they needed the very phalanxes which they tore up when they conquered the Greeks!).

For Coryan, we have a completely different genesis of the Legion. For one, many “Coryani Legions” are reborn First Imperium “Legions” (how ‘Legion-ish’, in the Roman style, these forces are is open to debate) which the Coryani have co-opted by retrieving the Legion Standards from that time. This means that the basic Legion formation dates back at least several thousand years and that the Coryani style is not as impressively unique as the Roman Legions were at their time. That said, the Coryani make use of many permanent formations of Legions in a way the Romans could only DREAM of (especially in the Republic era). The forges of Enpebyn are nigh Industrial Revolution sophisticated manufacturers of Legion arms and armours, the Legions are supported by the Church, powerful Patricians, Provincial governors, and the Emperor himself, though all (titually) under the control of the Emperor in times of war. The Coryani Legions are formations of such power and history that the Romans could only dream of such glory attached to them!

As for organization, as has been discussed before the Coryani Miltiary seems to be a far more ‘modern’ formation than the Roman legions were. Roman legions were homogenous Heavy Infantry formations, which were backed up by militia and mercenary auxiliaries and noble cavalry to fill out any roles that were needed. Coryani Legions, on the other hand, seem to be (at the Legion level, at least) combined arms groups which included Cavalry (as specified in the Equestrian background), Scouts (as specified in the Former Scout background), Infantry, and even the missile troops that Rome scoffed at as mere auxiliaries in the same formations. It probably doesn’t break them down into mixed Centuries, or possibly even Cohorts though, as Legions work best in formations, and the more mixed your lines are, the less effective as a Legion they are. That said, you will probably have 7 Cohorts of Infantry, and 3 Cohorts of ‘special troops’ as full Legionnaires rather than just auxiliaries, making the full 10 Cohorts of a ‘typical’ Legion.

Why the difference? Well, this is up to Henry, but from my perspective this comes a lot from the Gods of the Pantheon. While many of the Martial Gods (Hurrian, Nier, Illiir, etc) use melee weapons as their ‘Divine weapons’, others like Cadic do NOT (necessarily) use melee weapons. The Gods and the need to keep them all sacred means that simply stating that one is less important than another could bring up more social problems than looking ‘effeminate’ for being an archer. Of course, Coryan did something very similar when they banned the worship of Nier, but there were probably extenuating circumstances (assassination of the Patriarch, Nier’s roll in the destruction of the First Imperium, etc) which. . . pushed things that way. So, if no weapon is overtly disliked due to the worship of Gods who use what the Romans would consider ‘effeminate’ or ‘cowardly’ weapons, this could explain the more mixed-forces Legions of the Coryani.

So what about war? Well, the information we have is that the Coryani are a fairly war-mongering group. After all, they have conquered the Myrantian Hegemony, they exerted their imperial power in the Hinterlands and the Western Lands, and they have been moving their sphere of influence further and further into the Blessed Lands. But, you have to remember: These foreign wars were over the course of a MILLENIA. The Coryani as stated above, there doesn’t seem to be as much of the ‘traditional’ Roman drive to ambition in the Coryani as there was in the Romans, and this was made even more apparent by the fact that the Coryani were pretty much at the top of the heap of the Known Lands for centuries. Unlike Rome, which came to Empire after its warmongering had effectively strained the ability of the Roman democracy to rule its nation and failed to adapt fast enough to the changes, the Coryani Empire was founded as a coalition of allies who fought against a common foe which united them.

While Rome fought battles for glory and to keep the Plebs occupied (bread and circuses and all that), Coryan does not seem to do that. Oh, yes, Coryan DOES act as an Empire, but most of its conflicts have been internal. There were decades between major wars between Coryan and other parties, while Rome could barely go years without staging major campaigns. Hell, MILANDIR is much more of a war mongering nation than the Coryani are, having pushed for the Heretic Wars, the 5th and 6th Crusades of Light, as well as having to fight off Menisis val’Tensen’s invasion in the last century alone! This could be compared to the Pax Romana, I suppose, the period of time when Augustus Caesar consolidated power over the Roman world, but his peace was only about 250 years, whereas Coryan (as stated) has gone close to one Millenia with only two major, decisive wars against major powers (both cases, the Khitani). All other wars seemed more to be wars of influence rather than wars of conquest.

So, as I approach 4,000 words now, I should probably wrap up. To summarize, the more you look into the Coryani, the less “Roman”, or at least classically Roman they look. I base most of my comparisons on the Roman Republic and earlier Empire as that is the portion of history I am mostly familiar with, but I think it is quite telling. The Coryani seem less ambition-driven then the Romans, and more. . . peaceful overall. There appears to be less civil discourse than the Romans faced, there is much more equality among the various Coryani Provinces than at any time during the Roman Empire that I’ve read about, and there appears to be at least as much (if not more) upwards mobility within the society. The Coryani, despite their apparently peaceful nature, maintain a large standing military probably owing to their genesis as a military alliance and an effort to be more like the First Imperium, but I honestly do not see how their Legions are more than ceremonial formations most of the time due to the lack of political ambition and desire for glory that drove the Roman mind. While Rome started out as a beleaguered City State which had to claw their way to power among their neighbours, Coryan was the home base of the military commander of an allied force and simply became the First among Equals of their new Empire. While superficially they are similar, the overall driving forces of the two cultures are not the same.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Long...but a great post.

I think you are wrong to look at the early periods of the Roman Empire though for comparison. Coryan is (allegedly) a fading power as new Kingdoms spring up along the borders that were once territories. We should probably be looking at the later periods of the Roman Empire. I think many of us look to the earlier periods around Julius Ceasar because those were "exciting" times ... and because many modern writers like John Maddox Roberts and Stephen Saylor set their novels there. Lindsey Davis sets her novels not too much far afterwards.

But Rome essentially grew beyond the point of easy management by conquering all its neighbors. The good to great Emperors near the end could just handle it (making it all run). The indifferent to bad Emperors left problems festering. This led to experiments with multiple Emperors given a section of the Empire...and fighting between them. If I recall correctly Constantine the Great, who ultimately converted Rome to Christianity had to defeat three other rivals to assume sole rule of the Roman Empire around 300 CE.

Ultimately Rome split. One half became an Eastern Empire (where most of the money was), and the people usually used Greek as the common tongue. The other half became the Western Empire that collapsed under barbarians.

Okay. So what does this have to do with Coryan? I have 4 points:

ONE: Yeah, most of the problems for Coryan are internal rather than external. If you are a super-ambitious bright young spark most of the opportunities for advancement come from beating internal opponents rather than external opponents. With a big exception for a possible reconquest of Toranesta/Abessios. As a result, those Coryani that seek power need to beat internal opponents even if it potentially weakens the state to do so. Yes this does hurt Coryan overall ... but Coryan has been unassailable for so long no one really fears an external attack. Malfelens notwithstanding.

TWO: The Legions are 100% sexy mankiller machines that are a little more flexible than traditional Roman Legions. I believe mostly they maintain order and guard Patricians from power plays by rivals. Even if the compositions isn't 100% accurate vis-a-via Roman Legions I think we can assume that the general internal culture and life is pretty close.

THREE: Social Flexibility. Despite the way you describe it, in practice I don't think many Coryani move between levels in society. There is also how status exists on paper and in real life. Consider a Patrician family called the Caecillus. The head of the Caecillius manages to arrainge for his son or daughter to marry a val'Assante. Their val'Assante children are now Patrician Imperialis. Huhzah! They get to wear a fancy border on their toga. But at the same time they don't necessarily gain any real power. If the val'Assante was a commoner of some stripe then he/she brings no political connections. Other val Assante tribes (including the ones around the throne) might not like the new upstarts who are potential rivals for status and power. Hope the Caecillus line is ready for such competition!

FOUR: Culture. Forget the Republic. By the Time of Marcus Aurelius, the Romans had. It is true that the Throne is beyond the reach of most patricians...much less some schmuck off the street. Still there are lots of other plums to pick. The Governors live like Kings...mostly because that's what they would be but for their fealty to the Alabaster Throne. That means there are multiple courts for an ambitious Coryani to rise in (or through). Despite changes in religion, geography etc from Rome I believe that there is A LOT of cultural spillover between the two. Including ambition. I assume all Coryani Patricians drink it up along with their mother's milk as infants.

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Eric Gorman

AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:55 am 
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I will agree that the period from about 150 BCE to 0 CE is not the most accurate representation of the Roman EMPIRE, but as I said in the post, it is the time period which I happen to know more about due to school projects, films, etc. However, I think it is a valuable resource because it was in THIS period that a lot of the social issues about Rome were really coming up (Class warfare, the raise of the Equestrians, Citizenship of the non-Romans, etc). Best angle to take? Probably not, but the best I felt capable of using and still valuable for insights.

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Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:49 pm 
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How do the various races look at life? This is something which has occasionally popped into my head, especially when I get into a disagreement with a player who holds differing opinions. Since it has since popped back into my head, I thought I'd give my views as to how the major races of Onara might look at life.

Let us start with the easy ones: Humanity (and its immediate offshoots). I can only assume that the majority of people who play this game are humans (not discounting androids and space aliens who have infiltrated our society), which means that on average the typical player has at least a vague notion of what it would be like to play a Human, Val, Dark-kin, Gnome, Undir, and Kio. There are, however, a few things to take into consideration when doing an RPG character. The most obvious of this is that Arcanis is set in a period of High Fantasy, with basic technology similar to that of the High Middle Ages in our world.

In this time period, the average age of humanity was terribly low, with even those who live past childhood only living about half as long as your typical North American lives today (those of higher classes probably had life expectancies closer to the 70-90 range). To that end, there was a lot more. . . immediacy towards aspects of life such has marriage, child birth, and whatnot. People were expected to get married young (13-16 I have read in various places) and produce as many kids as possible in hopes that at least some of them live to procreate themselves. Additionally, all industry was very labour intensive, which means that those bodies took (on average) much more punishment than we are subjected to today, additionally shortening their lifespans. Finally, health care was basically non-existent for the majority of people from Rome to the Renaissance in Europe (better in similarly aged Muslim world before the Mongols came, but still not great), which means diseases were rampant.

This is further compounded by the mindsets of the people at the time. Even a cursory view of history will tell a person that ancient people simply did not have the same view of death that we have today. Violent crimes were less likely to be punished as the ability to gather and interpret evidence simply didn't exist, which means that things like murder were (in theory) easier to commit. This was ameliorated by forces such as religion scaring people into good behaviour by claiming that God is watching them, so he knows what they did, and would damn their immortal souls to hell for the crimes the secular authorities did not know about. That being said, my studies of history have shown me that the value of an individual life was simply less than what it is today (at least in nations with a European influence and Judeo-Christian ethic). War crimes were rampant, rape was common, and having a conquering army simply execute thousands of people after a victory was by no means uncommon. It was a harsh world, and empathy was generally seen to be a poor survival trait among the common classes (not unknown by any means, but also not necessarily the first place people went when witnessing suffering).

Additionally, there is another mindset that is completely alien to most people in the modern Western World: The instinctual differal to people of authority. Though there are many nations today which still maintain a hereditary aristocracy, the vast majority of people today have no idea how the reality of being a serf or a slave would be, nor do they automatically grant authority to those born of nobility. I have sat at many tables of people who play common born individuals who play their character using modern sensibilities of equality. There was even one case that I heard of in Arcanis where a common-born Dark-kin was speaking to Menisis val'Tensen as if he were a common man-servant! However, in most ancient societies (and even into the last 200 or so years), people were socially programmed to not rock the boat. It was considered quite strange that, 2000 years ago in the Roman Republic, for the common people to have ANY voice in the government (and even then their voice mostly was filtered through that of Patrician born Tribunes of the Plebs), and even this tradition was lost in the Empire period.

Now, we know in Arcanis that there are a few things which alter this somewhat. In this world, it is theoretically possible for EVERY human-kin to wield at least some magical ability (divine being the 'easiest' to get), which means that they have access to powers and abilities to reduce some of the above traits, particularly the physical labour and health care. After all, a person with even rudimentary divine training could cast something like stabilize or diminish fatigue. Additionally, the presence of Oracular abilities would make solving crimes easier, as you could have the ability to see the crime itself! That being said, though, probably only a very small portion of the population would have these powers, which means that outside of the higher classes who would have the time to invest in training these abilities or hiring those who have them, the vast majority of people on Arcanis would not live a life far different than Europe (or maybe the Muslim world) during the High Middle Ages.

But, as I said, being human, we players can at least get a basic understanding of what it means to be Human, Val, Kio, etc. But what about the other races? How do they look at life?

Well, the next 'easiest' to look at would probably be the Dwarves. Unlike humans, we know that the average lifespan of a Dwarf to be something like 250 years, as opposed to the 50 years of a human who made it past childhood. With some five times the lifespan of a human of the era, much of the immediacy shown by humans for life would be mellowed somewhat. This is reflected somewhat by the increased ages for almost all backgrounds available for Dwarves compared to humans in the game. Using modern humans as an example, this extra lifespan would probably make Dwarves less likely to invest their youth in family, and makes them far more likely to learn a trade. To use a real life example, I come from an upper-middle class Canadian family where I can expect a lifespan into my 70's. I was not pressured to marrying young, or procreating, so I instead spent my 20's in University learning my trade. Overall, their would be a greater cultural (and biological) imperative towards gradualism, and meticulousness. This would be further pushed at a cultural level by the needs of the Dwarves to make the perfect item, making them more meticulous and gradualist. The only opposing force (beyond the normal tragedies of life) is that they know that their race is slowly dying off, which means they may be more likely to 'live it up' a bit earlier in the lives than would be otherwise indicated, but would also mean that they are (theoretically) less likely to physically risk their physical selves. After all, after they die, their soul is trapped in their soul shard or lost to the ages, which means death is a pretty heavy thing among the Dwarves of Onara.

This 'gradualism' and patience would be even more pronounced among the Elorii. It is with people who play Elorii that I tend to have the most arguments about cultural (and racial) outlooks at life. In many, many cases I have seen Elorii players playing their characters as impatient, quick to anger and offence, and generally discriminatory. Their rational is that they are a persecuted minority, away from their people in a strange land. I, however, think this is the exact opposite view that they should take. Elorii are immortal, which means that even the most impatient of their race--such as the notably impatient Kelekene--should have the patience of a saint compared to a human (or, at the very least an equal patience). When you can easily measure your life in centuries--if not millennia!--the passage of hours, days, weeks, or even years simply does not have the same immediacy. I can see Elorii enjoying maybe a couple hours of work a day, spending the rest of their time being philosophers, or scholars searching the depth of knowledge. They have a fairly low population, so the needs of agriculture aren't necessarily as strong as human populations in the millions, so the per/individual hours spent on simply staying alive are likely lower than humans.

To me, I view the Elorii similar to the traditional Japanese apprenticeship taken to the extreme. In Japan, to become a sushi chef you spend the first few years of your working just learning to make rice before you even touch piece of fish or learn to cut sashimi. In North America, however, people might spend a week or two in training at a sushi restaurant before being moved up to different jobs. Part of this is the cultural objection to rushing on truly important things, because impatience and rushing leads to mistakes. It is a drive for perfection in ones craft, and the attention span needed to attain perfection.

The way that the Elorii deal with their souls also leads me to believe that there has been something of a. . . misunderstanding of their culture and outlook on life. It has been said many times, in many places, that the Elorii souls are effectively recycled. Hell, that was the entire point of making the Elorii in the first place: When one dies, their soul is--as a whole--reborn in a new body complete with all their memories and abilities. You simply have to wait for the new body to mature before they can make full use of the previous life's experiences. As it seems all Elorii in the campaign have been mind-wiped to one extent or other (otherwise the Elorii would be MASSIVELY too powerful to simply act as PC's, otherwise they would remember skills and experiences 10,000 years old!), the Elorii know that death is but a momentary speed bump in the greater story of their soul. As such, I would personally think that the Elorii would be far more willing to sacrifice their physical form than a human or (especially) a Dwarf would be, as those other races known that upon death, their souls and memories are lost forever (the Humans to the mixing of Beltine's Cauldron, the Dwarves to their soul shards due to The Curse of Illiir).

That being said, while an Elorii might be more willing to sacrifice their PHYSICAL bodies (and the heroism that that entails) they would be fare LESS likely to risk their souls. We know that only a limited number of Elorii souls were made, which means that there are a limited number of Elorii who can exist at one time. We also know that the destruction of a soul (via Kurenthe) is viewed as the most heinous crime an Elorii can commit (a point which many players haven't seemed to grasp, as I have seen or heard of no fewer than 5 instances where players have stated that they are committing/invoking Kurenthe, the most high-profile of which was at the Battle of Grand Coryan. To that end, I can easily see Elorii being the first to volunteer for a suicide mission against a great foe if it means they save lives--fighting to to their last breath--but NEVER volunteering to use their soul to power a machine which will save those very same lives.

The final major race to cover here are the Ss'ressen. Unlike the Humans, Elorii, and Dwarves, this is a race which is completely alien to human thinking. Let's face it: Humans cannot fully understand the motivation of creatures which do not share our values, and Ss'ressen, as reptiles, fall into this category. There are traits about reptiles that we are simply incapable of understanding. For example: Humans, as omnivores, do hunt for meat for their diet, but are not limited to meat. As such, to us the killing of an animal is often viewed as a special thing (almost a treat) as the majority of humanity eats a predominantly vegetarian diet out of necessity (meat is expensive!). To a Ss'ressen (a pure carnivore), would have to have no qualms about killing another living creature because they simply CANNOT think of any other way of eating. They are not vegetarians who supplement their diet with meat, but meat-eaters who might be able to supplement their diet with plant matter in a pinch. As such, taking a life (at least a non-Ss'ressen life) would be viewed the same way a Tiger would see taking the life of a potential food source. In its simplest terms, life is not precious to the Ss'ressen, because they MUST kill to eat, so survival is more important to them then killing.

Another trait to think about is that reptiles (including Ss'ressen) would have completely alien concepts of family life to humans. Humans raise live young, often no more than one or two at a time. These young are reared by a parental group for at least a decade before they are set out on their own because the young cannot realistically survive in the world before that age. This means that humans form tightly bonded parental groups around a fairly small group of young (typically their own offspring) for a long period of rearing. Ss'ressen, on the other hand, do not. They only become fertile at fairly limited periods of their lives, and produce eggs in (for all intents and purposes) a mass orgy. There is no love involved between the mates, but rather the biological need to reproduce. Pairs of mates do not exist in Ss'ressen culture, with specific males chosen by the Matriarch (and her female ruling councils) chosen to mate at any given time. The subsequent eggs are incubated by the Egg Clutch by the Matriarch in effective isolation of the parents of the young, and then creche raised after they are born. The actual rearing of a child reminds me more of the Sibko system used by the Clans of Kerensky in the Battletech/Mechwarrior series, where not-necessarily genetic siblings are raised in a large group. Furthermore, we know that the individual lives within each creche are not necessarily important, as the Ssethregore sourcebook gives us an example of members of the creche killing weaker members of the creche without there being any real punishment (I guess similar to other animals killing the runts of the litter), giving more weight to the lack of value on individual lives. The Ss'ressen value the lives of their eggs because they represent the continuation of their Egg Clutch, but the loss of a few individuals which show signs of weakness are not great loss as they cannot dilute the strength of the Egg Clutch as a whole. They take the long view of genetics, without the attachment given to 'weaker' members who could harm the population as a whole by taking resources or not contributing the 'strong' genes to the Clutch.

So, by the look of things, Ss'ressen are horrible inhuman monsters. Well, that was a given from the fact that they are six-foot tall lizards, but what does this mean for people who play Ss'ressen? Well, let's face it: Within this universe, you cannot play a Ss'ressen as what we would view as a immoral creature that is incapable of individual empathy (or even love) beyond the broadest needs of their society who kill other creatures without feeling any sympathy because that is textbook Lawful Evil to Neutral Evil behaviour. These views simply do not go well with a Living Campaign of Heroes doing Heroic things (according to our point of view). So how do we reconcile the Reptillian, alien mindsets (to our points of view) to what we've seen of the Ss'ressen (at least the Black Talon and Ashen Hides)?

Well, for one we know that while the Ss'ressen are a mostly communal group, with their primary cultural motivators being protection of the eggs (to ensure the birth of the next generation) and the worship of the Fire Dragon (their patron deity), we also know that their society is fairly regimented overall. We know that the head of each Egg Clutch is the female Matriarch, and that her immediate underlings are the Female Priestesses. These females form the ruling class of the Ss'ressen, with males being relegated to subservient (but not necessarily minor) positions. It is the job of the females to rule and ensure the spiritual well-being of the Clutch, while the Males are responsible for protecting and maintaining the Clutch (there is some overlap in these roles, but this is the major dichotomy).

Because of this major hierarchy, we know that the Ss'ressens are capable of individual loyalty to single individuals or small groups (ie: The female Matriarch, the male Warlord, etc) which means that they are capable of the emotion we call empathy and are not what we would call sociopaths. We know that--at least the Black Talons and to lesser extents the Ashen Hides and Ghost Scales--are capable of what we consider 'Goodness' because they have rejected the Machiavellian, "evil" views of Kassagore and Yig and the 'immorality' of the Yasshremoran Empire and Ssethregoran Empire in their worship of those deities. In fact, the Church of the Fire Dragon (at least among the Black Talons) could be viewed as a peaceful, hippy heresy within the Church of Kassegore which suggests that not all non-Ssethric lives are good for nothing but food. This doesn't necessarily mean that those lives are as sacred as other Ss'ressen, but it does give an opening for "Good Aligned" (using the human terms) Ss'ressen. These Ss'ressen would differ from their kin in that INTELLIGENT beings are not food, and are precious and not food, but still would not be nearly as 'squeemish' about killing as humans would be. Additionally, the concept of Love as we know it (though not necessarily plutonic love or loyalty to a great person) would be concepts they would still find alien as their biology does not support the romantic love that we humans take for granted.

Anyway, hopefully this (fairly) brief and somewhat awkward summery of my thoughts on this matter helps explain my views.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:19 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Cajun Country
Cody do you mind if I assemble these into a PDF, with some minor formatting changes and titles? I find these incredibly educational for someone like myself who hasn't been able to play through the living campaign or the old one.


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:47 am
Posts: 2493
Location: Central Alberta
I have absolutely no issue with this.

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Cody Bergman
Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Musings of a Canadian Nierite. . .
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:44 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Cajun Country
And here it is. Nothing fancy but a pocket guide to Cody's musings. I have the original text document as well so I can expand it.


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