A few notes before I respond. First, I've done this as a clinical exercise. I have not been emotional about it nor was I sure what the damage was going to be for the martial end of things. To that end I've tried to keep my tone and my examples reasonable. If I have come across as overly combative or attacking, you have my apologies. I certainly wasn't intending to. Second, if the spell to spell comparison comes out fairly comparable, then either this interpretation should be left alone or spells as a whole should be reviewed. Third, I think the concept of the spell is an interesting one especially if it can be properly balanced.
SamhainIA wrote:
you guys keep making assumptions that aren't true or are debatable
Adaptation Rapid Spell, pg 184 ARPG
Reading the talent it doesn't say you can apply it more than once (like adaptation Extended Range does for example) so you can only apply it once.
SamhainIA wrote:
the Area version has a speed of 9, its not possible to speed that spell up enough to make it non interuptable
Josh, in my example I only applied it once not more than once. I agree it doesn't say you can apply it more than once but unlike some other spells doesn't prohibit it. I believe I stated that I didn't think you could, but IF you could it would still be within range of routine casting with Metaphysical Understanding.
SamhainIA wrote:
<snip>A Pound of Flesh on heals an Ally, therefore you cant heal yourself with it ( you could with vampiric touch, but that changes the whole equation of what your representing)
Correct, I missed that detail. The net benefit is the same, though the caster will take damage after the first casting. This can be negated by the use of a Fate point to remove the strain. It may even be worth taking the initial 20 points of damage, depending, then fate pointing after the 2nd casting. Once you hit Tier 3 you could apply the Adaptation: Delay Strain and get through 4 castings on a single fate point.
SamhainIA wrote:
Again your comparing a AOE spell to Martial maneuver, its a apple to oranges comparison that is a worthy of an entirely different thread you could compare spells to spells and then we can talk about this
I myself said as much that it's an apples to oranges comparison martial vs. spell and that another spell comparison would be better. i am far more familiar with Martial Techniques and physical combat as I don't have a primary spell caster at the moment. Given the effective doubling of bonus (damage plus healing) I expect it will be challenging to put something that doesn't do a vampiric effect in the same total effect pool.
I would also be careful to ignore the caster vs. martial comparison. I would expect the goal is that martial characters at every tier are as effective and as useful as casters. I agree it can easily be it's own thread or 3, but shouldn't be ignored.
SamhainIA wrote:
Making the assumption of the feat chain you are, is kinda important, so spell affinity 2x, metaphysical understanding, sabbatical. that's most of the advancements for 2 tiers, is it worth it to really nerf a one trick pony like that?
To get back to your question about the feat chain. As you have pointed out the Rapid Spell Adaptation can't be applied more than once which would negate the need for Metaphysical Understanding. I'm not even convinced that Rapid Spell is necessary to be honest, but thought I'd take a look at how quickly it could be done.
The Spell Affinity options are each half of the "Gain 2 Arcanum Talents" option with the other half at Tier 2 being your ASC. That's hardly a ton of investment. Given how often Elemental Bolt is likely to be adapted, I have to imagine Spell Affinity is a popular pick. Likewise if your primary healing for allies is A Pound of Flesh the Spell Affinity would be tempting. At a minimum, by your second skill Advancement in Tier 3 you've already made up all the ground that Spell Affinity would cover.
Sabatical was an option to get a rank. Starting with 4 ranks is another. If you do the 2 Spell Affinity Talents you can start with 3 and skip Sabatical, Rapid Spell and Metaphysical Understanding. In which case you've only added 2 total Talents past your initial ASC to autocast it by tier 2.4. At that point you only need 9 ranks to get to the CTN 25 and you're still auto-casting it. Starting with 3 ranks, adding 3 per tier as a primary caster and a total of 3 Talents is a modest and easily achievable investment.
As to your note on nerfing a one trick pony, I disagree with the sentiment for a couple reasons. First, depending on where the other examples net out I'm not necessarily advocating it being nerfed. The arguments for why to leave the spell alone implied that it was virtually out of reach with a 30 - 40% chance of casting I believe Mith stated and minimal effects. I believe I demonstrated that the spell is well within range of current characters and that it can be used to good effect regularly. I based this on looking at what an average attack roll hits when compared to published creatures. If people want to debate nerfing something then there should be an accurate picture of what's truly being discussed.
Second, a caster with an autocast CTN of 25 and 2 good spells as part of their arsenal is hardly a one trick pony.
As I've stated previously, I think the spell is an interesting spell. I think the AoE portion likely makes it too good at the current return for investment based on my review so far.
Respectfully and with a sweep of his hat,
Paul