Advanced Spell v2.2 Effects

The CTN’s were chosen so that an Advanced Spell’s effects were on par with 2 Adaptations.

Taking straight damage as an example using Elemental Bolt / Arc Lightning from before:

Elemental Bolt
Base: CTN 18, Spd: 4 (+2) does Damage: d6 (Primary)
Adaptation 1xDamage: CTN 21, Spd: 4 (+3) does Damage: d8 (Primary)
Adaptation: 2xDamage: CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+5) does Damage d10 (Primary)

Current Errata:
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (melee) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+6) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (ranged) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+7) does Damage 2d6 (Primary) +2

Your Proposed Change:
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (melee) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+6) does Damage 2d6 (Primary)(Primary)
Advanced + Arc of Lightning (ranged) CTN 24, Spd: 4 (+7) does Damage 2d6 (Primary)(Primary)

So adding the Damage Adaptation twice gets you d10 (Primary): Average of 11.5
Current Errata: Advanced (ranged) gets you 2d6 (Primary) +2: Average of 15 for 2 more Strain and same CTN.
Your Proposed Change: Advanced (ranged) gets you 2d6 (Primary)(Primary): Average of 18 for 2 more Strain and same CTN.

In this case, the 18 damage average for 2 more strain is a no-brainer compared to the Base Spell + Adaptations. With 15 vs 11.5 it’s still leaning towards the Advanced Spell since you’re guaranteed that +2 damage without a roll.

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I agree, it’s a weird way to do the rule, but there’s 3 things trying to get balanced:
1/2) CTN’s of Advanced Spells and CTN’s of Base + Adaptations should be comparable so that both are still valid choices
3) Maintaining consistency in the rules as much as possible regarding Exploding Attribute Dice

Without an overhaul of Adaptation CTN’s/Speed/Strain costs alongside the expected Advanced Spell results, it’s going to be hard to fit a solution that’s perfect.

John

Also, it makes some spells that are meant to be combined (body of the warrior and shapechange) much more difficult to do, whereas before it was virtually a given that as soon as you could cast shapechange, you could combine it with Body of the Warrior.

and hence the crux of the issue, shapechange was obsolete as soon as you got it.. becoming nothing more then an “add on” for Body of the Warrior.. now you have to “grow into” that combination.

to be honest, ive given up on advanced spells, they have gone through so many changes that the original purpose for the changes has been so obscured, im not sure what we are even discussing anymore

and hence the crux of the issue, shapechange was obsolete as soon as you got it.. becoming nothing more then an “add on” for Body of the Warrior.. now you have to “grow into” that combination.

Or the issue could be that by tier 3, Body of the warrior is starting to get obsolete, and it really makes it more useful being able to rap it into a binding to keep it around full time. Especially since a spell like shapechange doesn’t provide natural armor or any means to bump the damage die of the natural attack option in the spell. So the only way to make the spell more “complete” is to merge it with Body of the Warrior. To bump the damage die now will require a +6 CTN to incorporate Body of the Warrior, and then +4 to die bump the damage – so +10 to bump the damage die.

I thought part of the value of the system was that low level spell remain useful becuase they can be incorporated easily with higher tier spells (or each other) due to their low CTN. Now that isn’t the case. Much less scalability to the lower tier spells with the new system.

I’m confused why there is such frustration with the proposed errata. I get the whole (Primary)x2 becoming (Primary)+2 is a touchy subject and there’s probably a way to do it similar to maneuvers (Pick one to explode) that still maintains balance.

I’m not sure why the +6 CTN is such a sticking point. Sure it means combining a Tier IV with a Tier I is the same as a Tier IV with a Tier IV, but you’re basing the advanced spell on the highest tier spell. So in effect you can combine a Tier IV with almost anything else with equal ease.

The way Arcanis is designed is that Tier I spells don’t become useless as you go up in Tiers, that’s why there are Adaptations. You don’t have to learn a new ‘elemental damage’ spell at tier III, you just adapt Elemental Bolt much easier to affect multiple targets and higher damage. This also means you can combine an Adapted Tier I spell with a Tier IV spell without increasing the CTN unnecessarily.

This has a ‘down side’ in that you can no longer ‘auto cast’ Tier I advanced spells at the start of your character’s life. However, you can’t reliably cast Adaptations either, so I don’t understand where the big difference is in peoples’ minds?

The new Advanced Spells actually feel a lot more like a ‘new, unique’ spell rather than just casting 2 separate spells faster. You can combine almost any areas now, which opens up a lot of new possibilities. You do need to beat both defenses just as in maneuvers.

The new changes give a natural progression (Assuming a d10 Casting Stat from 7-8, 3 Ranks Casting Skill to start and +3 Ranks / Tier)

Early Tier I (Passive Arcanum 18, +3 Skill)
– Tier I Base spells (CTN 18): Auto-Cast
– Tier I Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 21): Good chance (~50%)
– Tier I Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 24): Rare chance (~18%)
– Tier I + Tier I Advanced Spells (CTN: 24): Rare chance (~18%)

Late Tier I / Early Tier II (Passive Arcanum 21-22, +6 Skill)
– Tier I Base spells (CTN 18): Auto-Cast
– Tier I Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
– Tier I Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 24): Good chance (~45%)
– Tier I Advanced Spells (CTN: 24): Good chance (~45%)

– Tier II Base spells (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
– Tier II Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 24): Good chance (~45%)
– Tier II Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 27): Rare chance (~25%)
– Tier II Advanced Spells (CTN: 27): Rare chance (~25%)

Late Tier II / Early Tier III (Passive Arcanum 25, +9 Skill)
– Tier I Base spells – Tier I Advanced (CTN 18-24): Auto-Cast

– Tier II Base spells (CTN 21): Auto-Cast
– Tier II Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 24): Auto-Cast
– Tier II Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 27): Great chance (~70%)
– Tier II Advanced Spells (CTN: 27): Great chance (~70%)

– Tier III Base spells (CTN 24): Auto-Cast
– Tier III Spells + 1 Adaptation (CTN 27): Great Chance (~70%)
– Tier III Spells + 2 Adaptations (CTN: 30): Fair chance (~22%)
– Tier III Advanced Spells (CTN: 30): Fair chance (~22%)

and so on…

taking paths which increase your casting stat or other ways to increase your rolls really helps here too and by Tier IV spells are avaiable, your chances of Advanced Spells goes up.

John

I’m not sure why the +6 CTN is such a sticking point. Sure it means combining a Tier IV with a Tier I is the same as a Tier IV with a Tier IV, but you’re basing the advanced spell on the highest tier spell. So in effect you can combine a Tier IV with almost anything else with equal ease.

Which previously meant it was easier to combine a Tier 1 and a Tier 4. Now it is virtually as easy to combine a Tier 4 and a Tier 4. Hmmm. Can you combine a spell with itself and call it “greater” whatever for more bang? It undermines some of the usefulness of the low CTN spells by making them just as hard to combine with spells as higher CTN spells.
The way Arcanis is designed is that Tier I spells don’t become useless as you go up in Tiers, that’s why there are Adaptations. You don’t have to learn a new ‘elemental damage’ spell at tier III, you just adapt Elemental Bolt much easier to affect multiple targets and higher damage. This also means you can combine an Adapted Tier I spell with a Tier IV spell without increasing the CTN unnecessarily.

Except that in many or most cases, the newer available spells can accomplish more or the same thing as lower tier spells at a lower cost. Look at elemental bolt and elemental tempest. You can get an area effect out of elemental bolt with an adaptation, but elemental tempest does it with a lower CTN. So scaling things up from the base spell is a losing proposition, as adaptations usually cost more in CTN than you gain in skill in a tier. (I haven’t actually crunched this, but it seems that most adaptations cost around 4, and I assume an average advancement for a caster of 3)

This has a ‘down side’ in that you can no longer ‘auto cast’ Tier I advanced spells at the start of your character’s life. However, you can’t reliably cast Adaptations either, so I don’t understand where the big difference is in peoples’ minds?
I think what most low tier spells bring to a combination is their adaptations. Combine a higher tier 1 target spell with elemental bolt, than apply the elemental bolt adaptation to make it an area of effect. That used to require a small cost to combine, and then the still significant cost to adapt. Now it’s a total cost of +12 CTN, which will essentially make that undoable for the campaign. The cost of combining the spells is excessive enough that you can’t afford to do any adaptations; or at least not until late tier 5 or unless you are totally max yourself out, and even then it will be tier 1 with tier 1.

I’d have to agree with that. I hadn’t looked at the numbers for T4 (which would be very hard for anyone to pull off under the sum-15 rule). On the other hand, T4+T1 would be pretty easy (CTN 30 (now 33)).

As I said above, I’m mostly concerned with T1 (and have looked at T2 some). Most play will happen at T1-T2 even as more material comes out. Most campaigns will start at 1.1 and last for a while but will never reach T3 (in my experience, most games last 2 years or less of 4-5 hours of play every week or two). The living campaign will eventually reach T3 (and above eventually) but nobody is even close to T3 yet. As such, I’m much more concerned with things being useful and usable at T1-T2 and CTN+6 isn’t (as toodeep and I both said, it’s not really +6, it’s more +9 or so for advanced and an adaptation (never mind multiple adaptations)).

A new char can look at CTN 23-24 (T1+T1-15+adapt) and attempt it every once in a while hoping to get lucky and see that they’ll be able to successfully cast it most of the time by late T1 whereas CTN 27-28 (CTN+6+adapt) is late in T2 before they can cast it most of the time. Personally, I see this as a major problem (and it will likely cause me to create/play even fewer arcane casters).

Even with the current sum-15 CTN rule, I see adapted spells used more often than advanced spells (though I haven’t played at ArcaniCon/Origins much so that “level” of play may be significantly different).