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- June 18, 2015 at 12:34 am #151885AnonymousInactive
A conversation I was having with Hat suggested that it might be worthwhile to put a list of what races can produce what offspring. Ultimately it doesn’t affect the game significantly but I know a lot of people who make VERY elabourate backstories for their characters and it may be helpful.
Human + Human = Human or Dark-kin (if there is recessive Infernal Blood in their lines)
Human + Val = Human or Val (of parent’s family)
Human + Dark-kin = Human or Dark-kin
Human + Kio = Kio (possibly Human as well?)
Human + Undir = Undir (possibly Human as well?)
Human + Dwarf = Gnome
Human + Gnome = Gnome (as of last I recall reading)
Human + Elorii = Nothing (cannot reproduce)
Human + Ss’ressen = Nothing (and eww. . . )Val + Gnome = Unknown (no instances of this happening in canon to my knowledge)
Val + Dark-kin = Unknown (presumably Val of parent’s family, Human, or Dark-kin)
Val + Kio = val’Sungha or Kio
Val + Undir = Presumably Val (of parent’s family) or Undir?
Val (one family) + Val (another family) = Human or Val of either family (~50% chance of either)
Val + val’Sungha = val’Sungha or Kio
Val + Dwarf = Unknown (no instances of this happening in canon to my knowledge)
Val + Elorii = Nothing (cannot reproduce)
Val + Ss’ressen = Nothing (and eww. . . )Kio + Undir = Unsure
Elorii + anything else = Nothing
Ss’ressen + anything else = Nothing
Ss’ressen + Ss’ressen of another Egg Clutch = Presumably of whatever Egg Clutch the eggs were hatched in
I’m sure there are more combinations, but I think this is a fair guide.
June 18, 2015 at 12:41 am #268567AnonymousInactiveI would make the guess that Val + Dwarf = very twisted (possibly fatally so) gnome. If the Pantheon gets pissy about the traitors macking with their former charges, I’m guessing they’d be doubly upset about said charge being a chosen one.
June 18, 2015 at 1:24 am #268569AnonymousInactiveRandom thought:
If the val dominance trait is tied to the life of the Valinor that contributed, the decline of val breeding may be tied to the decline in the (living) Valinor population.
June 18, 2015 at 1:40 am #268571AnonymousInactiveUnknown, and possible. I am of the thought that the Reluctance of Hurrian spawned the val’Tensen, which is why after the Storm they went crazy, and it is heavily implied Manetas (the Pride of Illiir) spawned the val’Assante’s.
As to the Val + Gnome, I’m assuming it would yield a Gnome since Vals no longer breed true, but the Dwarven Curse seems very strongly in effect. That said, for a Val to produce a Gnome would probably lead to at least one dead person.
June 18, 2015 at 6:55 am #268586AnonymousInactiveI believe that in the mating of a val and a dark-kin, the celestial blood wipes clean the infernal blood. I don’t recall whether that’s something Henry posted in Living Arcanis days or something I inferred.
Val + Dark-kin = Human or Val (of parent’s family)
June 18, 2015 at 2:26 pm #268591AnonymousInactiveIf this is so, I have not heard of it. Personally (with the exception of the presumably extinct val’Hamen) the bloodlines do not mix, which would yield a Val or a Human, and there is a not unreasonable percent chance that the human will actually be a Dark-kin.
June 18, 2015 at 2:59 pm #268594frootsnaxParticipantThe most common offspring of two dark-kins is a human child.
The “curse” of infernal taint is very recessive without reinforcement or a breeding program (like in the sealed lands) designed to increase the infernal strain till it breeds true. So its hard to know if the celestial blessing of val blood could wipe a bloodline of infernal taint. Usually a Dark-Kin only pops up every X many generations. I tend to think val blood (which no longer breeds true) would not universally eliminate a dark-kin strain from a “family line.”
Obviously you can’t be both a val and a dark-kin (though in a home campaign I think there are interesting story possibilities there…)
June 19, 2015 at 1:26 am #268624frootsnaxParticipantVal + Undir equals a Val. In some of the origins myths the val’Baucisz have been described as originally of Undir stock. Not sure what the “official” line is now.
There is also an outside chance of that Val and Undir can’t produce children (see the two tribes of his humanity thing).
July 13, 2015 at 2:10 pm #269021AnonymousInactiveVal + Undir equals a Val. In some of the origins myths the val’Baucisz have been described as originally of Undir stock. Not sure what the “official” line is now.
There is also an outside chance of that Val and Undir can’t produce children (see the two tribes of his humanity thing).
Judging my the silence on my question re: the Savosh and the Mandai in canon, I do not think there are any canon examples of Savosh among the races of the Known Lands. This suggests that the ‘odd’ human peoples such as the Kio, Undir, Naori, and Pengik are either Mandai or at the very least able to interbreed with them.
Either that, or Henry just hasn’t seen my questions or has some sort of fiction which will deal with this forthcoming
July 13, 2015 at 5:34 pm #269022frootsnaxParticipantWell the Pengik certainly predate the coming of the PoM and I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that they are part of the Savosh “tree.” If so then they can’t interbreed with their “normal human” neighbors. Or maybe the Pengik are their own thing. The Undir also come into question…though in thief case I lean the other way. Personally I would guess that the Undir are enough of their “own thing” that they can interbreed with “normal” humans.
The the whole Savosh Mandai split opens up an interesting can of worms.
July 14, 2015 at 9:22 pm #269029AnonymousInactiveWhat about different kinds of Dwarves?
Is the maternal gene dominant? I thought I read that somewhereJuly 14, 2015 at 10:28 pm #269030AnonymousInactiveHenry has said elsewhere all dwarves can interbreed as they are all the same species. I assume that when it comes to determining enclave it is either the enclave they were born in or random chance in terms of what stone they have to bathe in the light of.
January 17, 2016 at 1:50 am #270956PCI_AdminKeymasterThere’s also the interesting (to me anyway) detail that Elorii are subject to the usual returns from random genetics. We know now that the first batches were resistant to psionics and that when that trait stopped being useful the Sstherics “bred” it out of them.
For me that’s a bit queer for illustrating a line between who a given Eloran soul is and who they become physically. I’d been assuming that the soul directs the expression of the body it returns to and if so that has all kind of interesting implications about how Eloran society is expressed with the lack of paternity and it’s attendant taboos.
As an example Father Anaris and Mother Belavosa create child Celia. Celia, under my old model, has the same characteristics that she’s had in every life since her first and doesn’t “take” after either parent.
This would do all kind of interesting things to Eloran concepts of family, sexual jealousy, the role of the parents in shaping the individual’s place in the greater society, and more.
But apparently that’s not the case.
So the new questions include the question of birth defects. Do they happen, and if so how often? Does the defect alter the soul of the elorii?
Do reincarnating elorii ever change sexes when they reincarnate?
Does the flavor of the soul change (I suspect not, but still..)?
How much can an elorii’s mental and physical attributes vary -is Salvos ever reborn “dumb”?
How much does a child take after their parents?
How much can an given soul change in a life -if Magros is reborn Maggie and nobody tells her who she was can his soul change?
Does a soul ever vary in potency -the racial talents and feats tend to flavor as “your soul is X stronger” so do souls wax and wane in might between incarnations?
Do elorii still raise children in creches?There’s also the issue of elorii not being subject to evolutionary pressures to consider.
If an elorii is psychopathic does s/he have that as a “soul trait” or do they have to be taught to disregard empathy?
Do elorii rape?
Do elorii feel reflexive jealousy?
Are elorii inclined towards monogamy?That’s all I can remember right now, but establishing that elorii genetics can be altered (and even exist trans-generationally) and that they (probably) aren’t influenced by evolutionary psychology quite how an eloran mind works and why would be well worth knowing more about.
My impression of the Elorii was very much that they were, not just culturally but individually, “unchanging.” If not so, what now?
January 17, 2016 at 7:55 am #270963frootsnaxParticipantThe only question you raise that I can answer is the one on raising children in creches. We are told somewhere (probably the original codex or eldest sons) that elorii initially live with their birth parents but then move out to join a “hall” that is elementally themed.
So as i understand it Celia (let’s say she’s Marokene) spends 10 years with mom and dad (maybe 2 Ardakenes) and then moves out to join the other “marokenes” … perhaps somewhat like when kids in the real world go to college or start looking for their first apartment.
It might be true that parent\child bonds are at least somewhat limited vis-a-via the human baseline because the period of development is truncated. Or it might not … I don’t know. I also don’t know how often “cross element” partnerships form. If all the elorii most often hang out with their kind then it stands to reason that most intimate relationships form within the same elemental flavor. I wonder if cross elemental partnerships are ever viewed with suspicion by your “elementally aligned” friends. This might have a dimension in parent-child bonds. Would Kelekene parents form a closer bond with their Kelekene child then they would if their child were Berokene? Lots of questions…all concealed behind the Laerestri veil of ignorance.
One thing I do know is that births are very rare. So it’s probably an instant block party when a child is born. And I suspect there is no shortage of volunteers if Mom & Dad need a baby sitter some Saturday night. From age 1-10 an elorii child probably has neighbors falling over each other to make a fuss over them. Almost all elorii children are single children. Even if Mom and Dad somehow hit the jackpot twice and have a second child the first should be grown and more like an uncle or aunt.
I believe there is more than the soul at stake in determining the direction and outcome of each (eloran) life. So I am sure there is some variability. “Salvos” might not be born dumb but he might be merely “noticeably brighter” or a “genius” depending on Mom and Dad. This suggests that the scope of free will might in practice be more limited for elorii…at a guess. For a soul do genders ever flip? I think not for elorii…that’s a guess but it’s somewhat illuminated by what we know from the old module the Banished.
Birth defects? I guess it could sometimes happen. Are elorii tempted to euthanize a birth that obviously suffers from abnormalities (to free the soul to be reborn in a “proper” body?). We don’t know…its behind the veil of ignorance. Possibly interesting for gnome characters to think about too.
Sex drive? Rape? Not topics I expect a huge amount of coverage in a living campaign. But since elorii don’t have the same reproductive imperatives of mortals I would guess the libedo could be lower. Or not. Sadly I think rape is still on the table. That potentially has as much to do with power imbalances as sex drive. Though outside the Coeseli there may be fewer such imbalances in elori society. We just don’t know.
A lot of the above is my speculation and guess work. maybe I’m wrong.
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