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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 4:59 pm 

Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:37 am
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Location: Leeds, England
Ahh, that particular certificate... suffice it to say, because of the history of the val'Hamen family, there is no actual part of their bloodline in the wild.

I'll speak to Henry about it at Origins, but despite being 'born' to two humans, one of your parents was actually the Patriach of the val'Hamen family. (Leave aside all mechanics; it involves the effect that was in place there.)

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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 5:49 pm 
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So, with Henry's line about two humans cannot (at least without the direct intervention of some deity. . . or Plot, the most powerful of forces), this basically kills the "Recessive" theory from a purely genetic point of view. With this theory, however, goes the line about the Vassal families, which irks me somewhat.

Having drawn many Punnett Squares, I cannot figure out a "simple" genetic method for passing "Val-ness" using Recessive genes. The most promising was that you could have a separate "Divine Spark" gene and a "Powers" Gene which works well when dealing with Heterozygous humans/Vals, but from 'pure' stock, the system fell apart. Basically, with a Recessive Gene the Val families should die out for at least one generation following their creation unless they are big into inbreeding. As soon as you though "dominant" human genes in, the Val genes fall into the background until at least the next generation of the mix where the Val traits can reemerge.

This means that 1) Shacking up with a Vassal Family member actually offers no tangible benefit as the Val gene is Dominant, or 2) That the 'val gene' IS recessive (and the Vassals can carry it), and there is something non-genetic at foot.

If, in a Human-Val pairing, you needed the Mother to be a Val, then I could totally see how this is. After all, in normal human cells all the 'cellular machinery" is provided by the mother, so there are very specific things which only get transferred that way. The example of this in biology is Mitochondria, which are present in the Ovum at fertilization, while the sperm simply provides genetic material. Hell, it could be even possible that a normal human could carry these "Val Organelles" in their cells, but without a double-copy of the recessive gene these Organelles do not function properly.

For example (H = Dominant "human" gene, h = recessive "Val" gene):

Val father (carrier) hh + Human mother (not carrier) HH = Human (not carrier) Vv
Val father (carrier) hh + Human mother (not carrier) Hh = Human (not carrier) with 50% being Hh

Val father (carrier) hh + Human mother (carrier) HH = Human (carrier) Vv
Val father (carrier) hh + Human mother (carrier) Hh = 50% Val (carrier) hh, 50% Human (carrier) Hh

Human father (doesn't matter) HH + Val mother (carrier) hh = Human (carrier) Hh
Human father (doesn't matter) Hh + Val mother (carrier) hh = 50% Val (carrier) hh, 50% Human (carrier) Hh

Assuming THIS is how it works, this means that not only is there a genetic component, but there is also a BIOLOGICAL component as well in that Organelles are a key component of "Val-ness". Of course there is still a risk of human + human = val mixes, but much more rare.

By the way, for those of the audience not familiar with mitochondria, they are small structures within every cell of the body which are responsible for much of the conversion of sugar into energy through a process called oxidative phosphorylation. The interesting thing about mitochondria is that they are--alone among the various organelles within a cell--self replicating, with their own DNA (mtDNA). As such, each one of your cells has TWO different chromosomes within it, though the mtDNA is limited in function to basically the mitochondria itself.

When fertilization occurs in animals (ie: us), the Egg (ovum) contains the majority of the cellular machinery needed to actually CREATE the embryo. The sperm DOES contribute to the cellular machinery of the newly created embryonic cell (fertilized ovum), but while the Ovum has between 100,000 to 1,000,000 mitochondria, the sperm only has 100 to 1,000. This means that the actual contribution of the sperm to mitochondria (and mtDNA) is negligable and tends to be 'lost in the rounding'.

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Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 2:49 am 
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Location: Portland OR
Ultimately I think the genetic model breaks down. My reading is that a lot less than 25% of val/val pairings produce humans. Totally my personal read. I don't think the dominant model captures what's going on.

The way the section is written makes me think that there is something vaguely shameful about having a human child which suggests its not something that happens to every other family.

Either "valness" runs off of something besides genetics or it runs off of multiple genes that produce a more complex pattern. [Shrug].

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. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:04 am 

Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:19 am
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My genetics classes were far longer ago than I'd care to mention, but yes, using the Mendelian model doesn't reflect the reduced likelihood that I think Henry and co. are saying to be the case. I think a better representation would be to think of being a Val as a type of polysomy or aneuploidy. That's a fancy way of saying an abnormal number of chromosomes--a mutation most well-known in human examples like Down's syndrome. Not all such genetic abnormalities are considered defects or even overtly obvious. Trisomy of the sex chromosomes can result in XXX, XXY (Klinefelter's), and XYY, all of which can go completely indistinguishable from those without the mutation (though the incidence of this is less likely in XXY). This would be representative of how Vals and indistinguishable from Humans aside from the genetic marker of eye color.

These examples are relevant in the discussion because it accounts for something very important: if we think of the Val "gene" as a recessive mosaicism (such as in the coloration of calico cats, which further makes me think of the eye color of Vals), without those genetic starting points, it's impossible for Vals to be born from non-Vals. Moreover, it means that it isn't very likely for Vals to breed true.

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Paul Baughman (no hat)
Belthazor Nádasdy val'Mehen of Nishanpur, Bearer of "False Yet True", Noble Born Sorcerer-Priest of Sarish, val'Mehan Emissary


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:13 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:01 am
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There is the option of Val being completely human with an additional template added: some kind of psionic parasite/symbiote which has it's own set of breeding rules and how it can survive in particular hosts. Possibly like a heredetary disease it can be passed down through infected people except that some who would be Val are immune and turn out human instead like the majority of the population? Differing Val families are like differing flu strains?


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 8:58 am 
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The problem with the "Germ Theory" of Val-ness is that ultimately diseases and parasites are transmissible, if poorly transmissible. If, as you posit, that the Val-ness is like a flu, than there should be cases of regular humans 'spontaneously' becoming Vals. Even the least transmissible diseases do crop up now and again this way.

The same is true for parasites, but this one is a little more complicated. Also, we KNOW that Val-hood is inheritable, which means that any parasite would have to exist in the germline to be passed on. If the parasites exist as such, why doesn't this get passed on to the mother in cases of a male Val having sex with regular human? Why would the "Val-ness" stay only in the resulting offspring? It is possible that these are intracellular parasites (similar to some strains of bacteria, such as Mycobacteria which cause Tuberculosis), but then we're falling back into cases similar to the genetic models for inheritance (though more random).

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Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:24 am 

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:17 am
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I don't see a problem with the Dominant Gene System working. I don't know if Henry specifically thought of all what we are discussing when he created this idea, but human genetics works.

If you assume that Vals were originally VV pairings. Then any child they had would be Vals as well. Even if they had children with a human they would Vv so the Dominant Val gene would surface. Humans born of Vals wouldn't show up until you started getting Vals with 2 recessive genes (25% chance) or Vals with the recessive gene having children with another human (50% chance).

But remember Arcanis is a word of stature and position. Can anyone think of another human-Val marriage besides Tensen-Balin from any module or story? Off the top of my head I can recall Alphaeus Jona-Borda from the Invisible Kings and they had no children. In over 100 modules taking place across the continent, and I don't know how many stories. Maybe 2 marriages mentioned between humans and Vals.

Vals marry Vals. While they no longer breed true. The society hasn't changed. People still jockey for position and marriage can be used to gain that position or forge strong bonds.
The local Val lord has a dalliance with a human girl will either produce a Val (so we know who the father is) or a human (the Val has complete deniability).

I'm taking us back to OP. Now assume a human child is born to a family of high ranking. Yes they are most likely shipped to a vassal family. That child would most likely never be told about his/her heritage. The less people who know a secret the less you have to worry about it. They would be told they belong to whatever human family they were raised as. It would be seen as a shame on the family a dark stain that is best sweep under the rug. Maybe the vassal family is aware of the truth, but they keep it secret or lose their position.

Finally this may have been Henry's original plan. The revelation of the Vivisectionist's heritage was suppose to be a big shock. Something we would never have seen coming. He was given that backstory of being shipped away and allowed to keep his family name so we'd see this is nothing new, it wasn't just starting to happen. He was born years ago. How many others could exist? So we as players may have met a Gracchi family member who is really born from a val'Assante.

So if both Vals have the recessive trait their a 25% chance the baby is born human, but a 100% chance their heritage is hidden.
Val-human marriage is in the minority. Most likely the child will try to marry another Val for position or political reasons. If the Val has the recessive trait there is a 50% chance of a human being born form a one night stand, with the Val gaining deniability. "I'm a Val I can't have human children, clearly the women was with someone else and child belongs to that other person."

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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:11 am 
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The only issue with the Dominant Gene theory is 1) the line on page 119 about the gene being recessive (which can be chalked up to PCI not having a geneticist on hand) and 2) the reference about the Val's keeping the Vassal families around and interbreeding with them to increase the chance of breeding a Val (same page). This last one could just be a HOPE that it will produce a Val, but the line strongly suggests that the gene is recessive and that the Vassals consist of carriers of a recessive Val gene. If the trait is Dominant, over the last 6000 years even people not familiar with basic genetics and Mendalian inheritance should know that this family doesn't significantly increase the chances of a Val UNLESS it was a recessive gene.

As I have said before, until another answer presents itself the Dominant Gene theory still answers the most questions within the narrative, so that is the one I personally subscribe to. However, like any good scientist, I continue to test this theory and look for holes wherever I can find them ;)

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Legends of Arcanis Campaign Staff
Initial Author Contact/Adventure Vetting

Haakon Marcus val'Virdan, Divine Holy Judge of Nier
Ruma val'Vasik, Martial Crusader and Master of the Spear
Jorma Osterman, Arcane Coryani Battlemage


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:09 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:01 am
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It is an interesting debate and much more fun than the traditional "a wizard did it!". Of course as always I'm betting that Henry isn't going to come out and say and that there will be more secrets about it along the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Val Genetics
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 6:53 am 
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Location: Portland OR
In the old campaign it was never clear to me why there were any humans left. The party line was that Val's always breed true. Given that, the val families should have spread over time with kids in and out of wedlock ,and eventually replaced "vanilla" humans. I suspect the change in editions with val genetics is to close this disconnect in logic.

I don't really like the genetic model at all since it seems pretty clear to me that Valinor aren't really mating with humans to produce val. Wasn't sex (sharing genes) that made the val'Bauciz....nor the val'Sosi ... nor the human to val change that took place in Shadow of the Devil. Doesn't look like sex explains the val'Vasik to me either. So looking to map some kind of scientific model ... my personal best guess for what is happening is that the changes between humans and Val's takes place at an epigenetic level and is a result of environmental stimuli. Environmental factors play a major role in what genes activate to produce proteins ... and as I understand it are at least partially heritable.

When a human is exposed to the right kind of cosmic energies (usually by a valinor) they "mutate" or "transform" into vals. Val's have a weird gland in their brain different than humans that absorbs cosmic energy left over from the creation of the universe that powers psionics in an awakened psion (and presumably powers bloodline powers in everyone else). Just like valinor have a weird organ that do tge same on a much larger scale.

I would suggest that these energies pass from val parent to child, triggering the transformation during pregnancy.

Under such a model, Val's with stronger bloodlines and/or awakened psionic abilities would be more likely to have val children. Having human children might imply that your bloodline is weak.

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AKA Ambassador Tukufu, man of letters, tomb raider and Master Sword Sage
. . . and Sir Szymon val'Holryn, Order of the Phoenix
Formerly Sir Jaeger val'Holryn. Weilder of the Holy Avenger: Thonanos. Gave his soul to help free King Noen


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