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Val Genetics
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Author:  Taffy [ Thu May 08, 2014 6:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Val Genetics
Hi all

I have been asked a question by one of my players on val breeding true.

Myra is designing a new character that has a val'Tensen father and a val'Ishi Mother. In her history some of her siblings are human.

Now, we know that vals do not breed true anymore and if we assume the the gene is a simple recessive then Human + val will normally produce a human but may on rare occasions produce a val; whereas a val+val would always produce a val (Nierite wrote a excellent breakdown of theoretical val genetics in his musing of a Canceri Nierite thread)

Is this how it works or is it possible for Val+Val to produce human offspring?

Also if that happens what would the naming stricture be Would it be XXXX Ishi-Tensen?

Cheers & thanks
Taffy
Author:  Nierite [ Thu May 08, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
We only have a single instance in canon that I know of where two Val's make a human (the Vivisectionist from the 3.5 days). He was a pariah and shipped off to a val'Borda vassal family to be raised iirc.

As for names, they would likely be disowned from the family and be stripped of the family name, or take the base name of the father (or mother in val'Dellenov lands) I would think.

Edit: I should also add I proposed the Val 'gene' as dominent, otherwise Val's would be VERY rare and only breed between two Val's. As a domunent gene, it means a Val and a human can have a val, as we've sewn with Senator Tensen-Balin's kids.
Author:  archangel [ Thu May 08, 2014 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
For the naming I thought the book said somewhere that they took on the name of the family whose powers they inherited.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Thu May 08, 2014 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
Nierite wrote:
Edit: I should also add I proposed the Val 'gene' as dominent, otherwise Val's would be VERY rare and only breed between two Val's. As a domunent gene, it means a Val and a human can have a val, as we've sewn with Senator Tensen-Balin's kids.


Unless my biology is failing me, recessive would allow any mix to have a val but val+Val would always produce val. Eg, if Val = V and human = H then all val would be vv while humans would be hx where x could be v or h. I see that as more likely than val as dominant since there is only a single case of val+Val=human (do we have any cases of human+human=Val?)
Author:  Nierite [ Thu May 08, 2014 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
Recessive traits are only carried through if there are two copies of the recessive. Say the gene was H, with its recessive being h. If you are HH, you have the dominant trait. If you have Hh, you have the dominant trait, but carry the recessive. You only express the recessive trait if you are hh (two copies of the recessive gene).

If Val's are recessive, then two humans can make a Val. If it is DDOMINANT, than at least one of the parents has to be a Val. If dominant Val gene is V, and recessive gene (human) is v, Val's can be Vv or VV, while humans are vv.

We only have a single NPC example of V+V=H, but that was made as a big deal because Val's used to always breed true in 3.5. Now that they don't, the significance has been lost. Also, if Val is a recessive trait, you could have two random humans make a Val, which has NEVER happened in canon so far.
Author:  Southernskies [ Thu May 08, 2014 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
No.

There's an old thread on it which boiled down to 'magic'.

The 'val gene' is effectively recessive, but becomes dominant if one parent is already an active val. Tried to work it out biologically and it was un-modellable using the available information (the 'one parent must already be a val' clause).
Author:  val Holryn [ Fri May 09, 2014 2:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
Here is my take on a union between a val'Tensen and a val'Ishi.

Most Likely outcome:
val'Tensen and/or val'Ishi kids (equal chance for both). Family puts pressure for the val'Ishi children to be raised by the vl'Ishi...presumably in Enpyben. Family pressure from the val'Tensen family for the children to be raised by the val'Tensen (likel mitigated by the chaos in Almeric and the presumption that no one can claim to speak for the family for the family as a whole).

Less Likely outcome
Some human offspring too. Surprise! Pressure from both families for the child to be raised by one of the "vassal" families. Maybe (or maybe not) some whispers of infidelity on Mom's part. This definitely does happen now with the way vals work.

At present I know of no named vassal families for the val Ishi. The biggest known vassal family of the val'Tensen family is the Balin family (famous for a certain senator Tensen-Balin). If given up, the child is called Balin (or whatever family it is placed in). If the parents buck the family? Who knows? By defying convention the parents need to figure out what the heck they're going to call their kid. Not "val X." Ishi-Tenson seems possible ... but as I understand it NEITHER the val'Ishi nor the val'Tensen look on this with favor. This definitely has repercussions. Don't expect an invitation to the family's annual holiday parties. Also, like "the boy named Sue" expect junior to have some trouble with his peers.

Wildly & Provocatively Speculative
Dark-kin child! Okay maybe this can't happen. We know you can't be both a val and a dark-kin because the celestial influence is incompatible with and blocks the infernal stain ... at least that's the party line. (Maybe it does happen once in a generation, but the kids are quietly disposed of at birth). But what if the stain was still there lurking in the "genetic code" waiting for the chance to emerge? A human child of 2 val wouldn't have the celestial "shield," and might then have the normal tiny chance to turn up dark-kin (assuming some dark happening in the past). This could potentially make a great story which is why I like it ...

One thing we do know: that the val "gene" is not a straight comparison to an ordinary recessive gene.
Author:  Haakon_val'Ishi [ Fri May 09, 2014 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
What about a val'Holryn and a val'Ishi? My original character, a val'Holryn with the val'Tensen bloodline, married a val'Ishi. I assume most if not all children would be either val'Tensen or val'Ishi. But given the val'Holryn bloodline is a bit of a wild card, could it possible for some other bloodline to pop up. Or does the fact that the father has the val'Tensen bloodline (even though he's a val'Holryn) "lock down" the available bloodline? Just wondering about this for character reasons mostly.
Author:  Encali [ Fri May 09, 2014 5:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
My understanding would be yes to the former. There's no rhyme or reason as to which bloodline manifests in a val'Holryn.
Author:  val Holryn [ Fri May 09, 2014 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Val Genetics
Haakon_val'Ishi wrote:
What about a val'Holryn and a val'Ishi? My original character, a val'Holryn with the val'Tensen bloodline, married a val'Ishi. I assume most if not all children would be either val'Tensen or val'Ishi. But given the val'Holryn bloodline is a bit of a wild card, could it possible for some other bloodline to pop up. Or does the fact that the father has the val'Tensen bloodline (even though he's a val'Holryn) "lock down" the available bloodline? Just wondering about this for character reasons mostly.


My old character Jaeger was val Holryn(Tensen) too!

The val Holryn do not have a bunch of seperate lines that breed true. Every val Holryn born turns up with the trademark grey eyes (and now brown curly hair) ... and a bloodline power that is apparently randomly chosen from the families that were around when they came into existence (possibly during the Blood War of the First Imperium).

As for progeny, I believe about half of his kids would be val Holryn (any bloodline). About half would be val Ishi. An "unfortunate" few might be born human. Your original character's val'Tensen powers does not lock down anything as I understand it.
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