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A few spell questions
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Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:24 am ]
Post subject:  A few spell questions
Does Benediction on Armor boost the AR of someone getting most of their AR from natural (rather than worn) armor? Given the naming, I would guess not but the wording says "the spell bestows upon the armor the blessing of +1 to the Hero’s Armor Value" (it does not say "+1 to the Armor's Armor Value").

Given the Scales of the Dragon and Benediction of the Gods are both T1, both CTN 18, both have an adaptation for +6 CTN to increase the (AR) bonus by +1, why is Scales limited to +2 while Benediction can grant +3? Benediction has far more varied uses so, if anything, I'd expect it to be reversed.

I thought I had another one but can't remember it right now (it's late)...
Author:  acurrier [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Completely non-official answers, but if I were GMing and you asked me I'd say that Benediction on Armour grants +1 Armour Rating on Armour, not Natural Armour (as it specifically states it has to go on armour).

I would also say that Scales is limited to +2 because Natural AR applies to a number of things that worn AR does not. It is a superior type of AR.
Author:  Nierite [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
If the bonus us to armour, then it cannot be added to 'flesh' AR is by definition worn.

That said, CLOTHING us worn, and u believe it has been said it is entirely legal to Benedict a garment which becomes Worn Armour, though only with the +1 AR through stacking rules. This also works for Runes and Fine and Exceptional clothes as I recall.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Nierite wrote:
If the bonus us to armour, then it cannot be added to 'flesh' AR is by definition worn.


Except that "AR" is used to mean either or both in various places. For instance, Greaves of the Scout says "grant you an additional point of AR when in light or medium armor" but has been officially clarified to add +1 AR to Ss'ressen. I know there are other places where it is unclear. There are also plenty of places that say "natural armor", "natural AR", "worn armor", or "worn AR". The closest to consistent I've found is that "AV" (almost?) always means worn AR. It would be much simpler if it was clear and consistent but it is not (unless AR is supposed to always mean either while AV means worn and NAR means natural but I don't think it's that simple).

Nierite wrote:
That said, CLOTHING us worn, and u believe it has been said it is entirely legal to Benedict a garment which becomes Worn Armour, though only with the +1 AR through stacking rules. This also works for Runes and Fine and Exceptional clothes as I recall.


It seems very odd to me that one of the biggest racial bonuses of Ss'ressen is offset by lots of AR bonuses seemingly only applying to worn AR.

Ss'ressen: 4 (race) + 1 (talent but -1 Avoidance) + 1 (scale armor) + 1 (item from scale) + 1 (greaves) + 2 (scales of the dragon) = 10
other: 4-5 (heirloom talent but maybe -1-2 Avoidance) + 1 (defense rune) + 1 (natural possibly from spell) + 1 (greaves) + 3 (benediction) = 10-11

And it would be easier to further bump worn AR even higher (pretty sure it's possible but I can't think of it off-hand).
Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Armor Rating (page 305): Characters often have an Armor Rating (or AR) provided from physical armor, magic, or even natural traits.

So AR is a generic term used to mean any armor (or total armor). It seems like we either need an official clarification that "AR" always means any sort of armor or else a lot of entries in the books need errata for clarification.

As written, strictly by the rules, Benediction on Armor would apply to a Ss'ressen (eg bumping NAR) but I think that it probably should not (though I'd like it if it did as then I could skip Scales of the Dragon).

I left the below since I'd already looked them up before running across the definition of AR...

AR is commonly used to mean many different types of AR:
  • Noll Dappans gain "+4 Armor Rating against Fire, this AR applies ..."
  • Adaptation: Piercing "cause a spell to bypass AR" and "may bypass any amount of AR"
  • He is With Me "gain a bonus to Prowess and AR" and "gain a Die Bump to your Prowess die and a +1 bonus to your AR"
  • Cadic Guides My Hand "sacrifice accuracy to bypass AR" and "may suffer -2 to hit to reduce the AR of any opponent by 1"
  • Bestial Hide "possess AR 6 against fire damage"
  • Hand of Ghosts "bypass your opponent's AR"
  • Armor Piercing quality "attacking a creature with an AR of 3 or more"
  • Point Blank Shot (and Shattering Shot) "reduce the Target's AR by 2"
  • Shield Formation "gain a +1 bonus to your AR"

Whereas other places clarify which type of AR:
  • Adaptation: Rend the Soul "bypasses all AR granted by worn armor"
  • Bloodline of Fire "gain Natural AR of 5 against all spells dealing fire damage"
  • Bloodline of Stone (and others) "granting you Natural AR of 3"
  • Saluwe's Embrace "armor's AR is increased by 1"
  • Moment of Prescience "bypasses all AR provided by worn armor"
Author:  PCIHenry [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Hello Steve,

wilcoxon wrote:
Does Benediction on Armor boost the AR of someone getting most of their AR from natural (rather than worn) armor?


No, it does not.

wilcoxon wrote:
Given the Scales of the Dragon and Benediction of the Gods are both T1, both CTN 18, both have an adaptation for +6 CTN to increase the (AR) bonus by +1, why is Scales limited to +2 while Benediction can grant +3? Benediction has far more varied uses so, if anything, I'd expect it to be reversed.


this was done for balance purposes, so no it will not be reversed/changed.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
PCIHenry wrote:
Hello Steve,

wilcoxon wrote:
Does Benediction on Armor boost the AR of someone getting most of their AR from natural (rather than worn) armor?


No, it does not.

wilcoxon wrote:
Given the Scales of the Dragon and Benediction of the Gods are both T1, both CTN 18, both have an adaptation for +6 CTN to increase the (AR) bonus by +1, why is Scales limited to +2 while Benediction can grant +3? Benediction has far more varied uses so, if anything, I'd expect it to be reversed.


this was done for balance purposes, so no it will not be reversed/changed.


Thanks for the official clarifications.

Would you mind explaining a little more about your second answer? Natural AR does have a few benefits over worn (namely some spells/maneuvers only bypass worn) but, on the other hand, Natural AR is harder to raise than worn already. I must be missing something because I don't see the balance implications.
Author:  Nierite [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Natural Armour is pretty much the be-all and end-all of AR in this game. There are many more way of getting around worn armour compared to natural armour, which means that if you had a means of super-pushing up your natural armour it would give far more advantage (relatively) than worn AR.
Author:  PCIHenry [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
Hello Steve,

Cody pretty much sums it up quite nicely.
Author:  wilcoxon [ Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A few spell questions
I don't expect anything to change but I made a list of things that bypass AR (worn only or both) from the main book and CoH.

There are 16 things that bypass only worn AR and not natural AR (only 1 of those is not a spell or adaptation and that's a T5 ranged-only maneuver). There are 32 things that bypass any type of AR (8 of those are not spells or adaptations - some are very common while some are not).

Is Natural AR better than worn? Yes. Is it enough better for the difficulty in raising it? I'm not sure (if I have time, I'll do an analysis of the max natural vs worn AR you can get by T3 (worn will definitely be higher but I'm not sure how much yet)).

Bypass worn only:
  • Adaptation: Rend the Soul
  • Moment of Prescience
  • Anshar's Caress
  • Blade of our Lord
  • Bleed
  • Blood Boil
  • Deep Chill
  • Inflict Pain
  • Pyrokinesis
  • Righteous Strike (Fire Dragon, Nier, Sarish, Yarris)
  • Rot
  • Swarm of Locusts
  • The Final Note
  • Unending Pain
  • Violent Growth
  • Brittle Steel

Bypass both:
  • Adaptation: Piercing
  • Cadic Guides My Hand T2
  • Hand of Ghosts T2
  • In Darkness there is Death
  • Armor Piercing
  • Juggernauts' Hammer (sort of - damage doesn't but effect does)
  • Point Blank Shot (and Hawkeye T2)
  • Shattering Shot
  • Incorporeal (monster)
  • Pound of Flesh
  • Bury
  • Castigate
  • Chill of the Grave
  • Crushing Weight
  • Life Leech
  • Mental Scream
  • Recall thy Pain
  • Righteous Strike (Althares)
  • Slash the Soul
  • Synaptic Shock
  • Tear the Soul
  • Thunder
  • Walking Nightmare
  • Bloodletting
  • Blood of Ashes
  • Breath of Yarris
  • Coils of Flame
  • Insult to Injury
  • Mind Spike
  • Rattle the Bones
  • Shared Sacrifice
  • Tear at the Flesh

Bestial Hide provides up to +3 Natural AR (but is Heritage val'Dellenov with range self so it's much more likely to give the flat 5 NAR).
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