I would agree with you...although I think that the job of sorting through those reports would occasionally be difficult (i.e. What Lies Beneath).

Thoroughly enjoying the Valinor discussion by the way, good job once more.

There's also the very real possibility that the gods of the PoM were the greatest of the Valinor, elevated or evolved to a higher level at some point from a common stock race that the Valinor come from. Those devoted followers were then elevated to a lower status in exchange for their service.

The Valinor in turn may have originated from the evolution of the greatest of the val and so on, back to the "base" human race. The Blood Wars tie into this notion of the pyramid.

This may be a case where a possible future for the world simply creates itself with the higher level beings ensuring that the earlier steps of the evolution are where/when they should be.

Separately and back to one of Cody's theories / questions regarding whether the Valinor are naturally psionic or not given that the val race is, it's possible that only Valinor that did have the capability for psionics were allowed to spawn the val sub-race. Eric has mentioned other servants of the gods such as the Celestial Shield Maidens. Perhaps those represent the children of the non-psionic val, contributing other powers / gifts to them.

I doubt we'll ever know the full truth, but the speculation is fun.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

While I agree that in many societies the general plebes may be illiterate, I suspect that most populations probably have someone that can read and check written documents (akin to the town priest historically). Additionally, my impression from modules is that while actual books might be expensive, it does seem that fliers and other “published” material probably produced by printing press (or possibly lithography) is reasonably common, leading to the ability to rapidly disseminate limited knowledge.

Also, you are missing a historic form of information exchange – homing pigeon, raven, etc. I don’t think we know for a fact that such a bird exists in the campaign, but it seems highly likely that it does, since it is period and even humans have shown the degree of breeding/magic control to design such creatures. And considering the value in this type of creature, it seems likely that if they can be designed/trained, they have been. This method doesn’t allow for large texts to be transmitted, of course, but fairly fast and accurate transmission of important information should be available.

Finally, I think you devalue the Ansharan gates a bit. It seems likely that organizations regularly pool their money to send transmissions through gates. Just one courier carrying bags from numerous consortiums might easily make a weekly opening of a gate from location X to Y cost effective, and encourage rapid dispersal of information.

Finally, with paper readily available, writing reasonably common, and multiple method of transit available; we’ve seen that many people (val families, trade associations, secret societies, governments) send information extremely regularly over distances so there does appear to be quick dispersal of information throughout the known lands - in writing, which would seem to significantly reduce the issues in a game of “telephone.” You still have issues in what communique’s you trust, and whether the writer was being accurate or providing spin on events, but it seems that significant information can travel quickly.

In general, it seems that the world of Arcanis is generally more literate, has greater amounts and access to written material, and has more/better modes of transport of than medieval Europe; which should lead to commensurate increases in data transmission and accuracy (especially when you throw in divination magic to increase data gathering and truth-checking)

I call this (maybe with my tongue in my cheek) the Terminator model. I suspect that this is case. And if the Ascension has/will take place on Arcanis (perhaps because of the Birthing Chamber of the Gods) then we have a pretty good idea why "everyone" keeps coming here.



I believe Valinor all wield the Arcanum through abilities that are essentially psionic in nature - regardless of what past stat blocks have said. We know they (Valinor) have an organ that can harness the ambient "cosmic energy" and use it to create (massively powerful) spell effects. That's psionics even if the end effect doesn't match what we/PCs understand as the normal psionic traditions. From Xabal we also know that they are knowledgeable in the Cants of their patron Deity. If psionic power was inefficient in some instance they might wield cants as well. Assuming they still have faith in their patron. Its hard for me to picture Manetas wielding the Cants of Illiir.

Do remember, faith in a god doesn't mean submission to them. Hell, Manetas could have considered subjugating humanity to his whims the ultimate extension of Illiir's perfection. He is the god of asceticism, where his followers are commanded to not give into their urges in the strive for perfection. What Manetas demanded was simply a literal view of this.

My understanding is that Manetas sought to replace/usurp Illiir. He sought to steal his worshippers. That's not (IMO) remotely compatible with any form of following Illiir. I don't think Manetas could have used the Cants even though he knew them...on the other hand with his massive psionic powers I'm sure he could have faked it from a mortal viewpoint.

I love the topic of the Valinor.

Cody I believe you are mixing two different times in history in your third paragraph. The Codex Arcanis 2nd Ed. does mention the War of the Gods (page 2.) This was when the Other convinced Valinor and humans to side with it, fight the Pantheon (and possibly killed the gentlest of the Pantheon) ending with the Other fleeing and the Pantheon following. That section is told to be the version that the Mother Church tells the people (Common Man's History).
The second time period is the fight between Illiir and Neroth leading to fall of Manetas. This was after the First Imperium had already been built, over 2000 years later (according to the Time line given the 3.5 Ssethregoran book). This information about the fighting between Illiir and Neroth, Sarish interceding, and Manatas falling is from Blood Reign of Nishanpur pg 31. It is written out of the module, as addition info for the GM about NPCs present. So more reliable then in-game info.

Also this leads to a point I made in another thread about Valinor. Besides the Codex Arcanis mentioning them crossing with the gods, and a single reference of a Valinor (not named) attacking Belestor. Every other source talks about Valinor appearing after the creation of the First City. That is when you start getting their names and their deeds. Even the 3 Valinor that you can hear speak only mention happening after the Fall of Belestor. The Love of Illiir talks about the Manetas's first attack, and the Gods leaving. The Serentiy of Beltine talks about her attack on Akrosia. The Pride of Illiir talks about creating the val'Assantes. They were needed to attack the enemies of humans. First used to defeat Elorii citadels like Akrosia and then used to destroy the dragons.




Your sixth paragraph mentions Sarish remaining neutral during the Gods' War and gaining many new Valinor. (from pg 4 of the Codex Arcanis.) But this is still in the perspective of the Mother Church talking to the common man. To me it seems more likely that the fallen Valinor came from Manetas' original attempted coup. He did convince 1/3 of the host to join him. (Blood Reign of Nishapur pg 31

As I posted in another thread. There is one other mention of beings similarly built like Valinor. Not in appearance but in the way you describe it. A facet of their god, that is divine in nature and can grant spells. The Issori Gods. I'll just copy my old comments here and edit them to avoid repetition.

In the old Arc there were two modules
LA-SP5-05 To Spin An Ancient Web
LA-SP5-10 Trembling of an Ancient Web

These gave a glimpse at the ancient civilization of the Issori. The culture that controlled the First City before the Ssethrics. In their culture there was one God with many facets. ie Anger, Protector, Prophecy, etc. During their fight against the Ssethregoran Empire the facets began to go mad and die. The Issori learned to contain the mad facets into giant crystals. But once they contained one they lost that aspect of themselves. When they contained the Anger facet they lost their drive for war and lost the First City to the Ssethrics.
That sounds a lot like when the Reluctance of Hurrian was killed and the Wrath of Hurrian was freed. The val'Tensen became quicker to anger and more unruly.
Taking this further these modules also state that highly devote clerics of the Issori god could become facets and choose what aspect they represented. The other clerics were not sure how this happened. The Issori claimed that they could worship these facets for limited power the same way that worshiping their God granted but weaker.

I wonder if the Issori facets are the same thing as Valinor.

Perhaps there is something the First City that allows someone to become an Issori facet or human Valinor. Something that both the Ssethrics and Elorii never found.

If we look at Valinor. They are each an aspect of a god. This thread has an incomplete list.
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=730

From the old campaign Manetas had worshipers and granted them power. Specifically they counted as a different church for the sake of Smite Infidel. And he could curse those that defiled his Holy places.
Also from the old campaign The Year of Ill Harvest (the published book) a human extracts an organ from a Valinor, implants it into himself and slowly begins to change into a Valinor (or Valinor-like) as well.
Finally in "the Page" from the Black Book of Ymandragore it documents the Sorcerer King successfully implanting the organ in himself. And I don't think anyone would argue that the SK is a powerful being. (This is also info given from The Year of Ill Harvest.)

So coming back to Valinor, and moving to the idea of ascension. I think there is something in the First City that the Issori used, and the humans found that can turn a lesser being like a human directly into a divine being like a Valinor. Looking back at my old post and these new comments by everyone here. I had a new thought what if the True Dragons, children of Kassegore and Yig, are in fact Ssethrics version of Valinor. Lesser beings transformed to greater divine ones they were worship for a time but not greatly. Jaggel Sag is still worshiped. And like Cody said a True Dragon's blood was used to empower the heroes in the last campaign. I'd have to check the Ssethregoran book more closely now that I think about this. Only the Elorii never found the source of this ascension.

You are correct about the timeline of Blood Reign, I was doing it from memory so I guess I am prone to errors.

For reference -

Yes, Sarish tempted him away from Illiir's service by appealing to his pride during the First Imperium. This lead him--according to BRoN--to form his own Cult, the events of which we seem to now have in the released History section of the Blessed Lands book. When Manetas became too powerful Sarish (or, at the very least, through the action of Loshnek most likely) found a way for the citizens of the Imperium to imprison him in a bone-statue which at least eventually found its way to Nishanpur (if it wasn't there to start with). He was released because some foolish hero actually put blood to the lips of the statue, freeing him from his bondage.

The actual timeline of Sarish's manipulations of Manetas are a little more. . . fluid, however. We have in canon that peace was made between the warring Pantheon of Man when the Other started the God's War by killing the missing member of the Pantheon, which suggests that Manetas was wooed by Sarish at this time. It is possible that Sarish planted the seeds of discontent, but it wasn't until after the God's War and the formation of the First Imperium that it truly begun to take root. By this point the Gods were gone to wherever they went, so Manetas was probably (one of) the leader(s) of the Host that was left to defend mankind, which would have made it easier for him to recruit 1/3 of the Valinoric host to his cause. After all, with the Gods gone, who is going to control the most powerful of their servants?

If we go by this timeline, we can get a bit more 'realistic' view of how it went, because while Illiir could not kill Manetas ("for it would be like cutting off his own arm" as the Love of Illiir suggested), surely the GODS could do SOMETHING about 1/3 of the Valinoric Host revolting!!! It also took a century of what we now know was Manetas manipulating the First Imperium before he managed to take power, and it was through the actions of Man (at least partially) that he fell from power, which is 100% Loshnek's style based on what happened in the Coryani Civil War.

Also of note, according to BRoN, Valinor have 6 fingered hands (or, at least the statue did), which is neat/strange.

Because the original article was already SUPER long, I didn't include one other point, but I thought I'd expand upon it.

Roles of the Valinor

The Valinor seem to have a very interesting series of roles which implies that each Valinor is not created equal. Some Valinor--such as the Serenity of Beltine, Hatred of Neroth, Temperance of Nier, etc--seem to be straight up martial-angel types and appear to be the foot soldiers of the Gods. The Serenity was captured at the assault upon Arkhosia during the harrying of the Elorii at the end of the God's War, the Hatred was seen as a particularly unpleasant combatant in the Battle of Grand Coryan (who was bound in Neroth's Hell), and the Temperance was one of the many Valinor lost in the Dragon War (him to Jeggal Sag). These Valinor seem to indicate that the Valinor were created to be an uber-warrior type of creature in the service of the Gods. Supporting this, Manetas (the Pride of Illiir) was considered to be a General of Illiir's host, which suggests a similar role, but displays a heirarchy within the Host.

On the other hand, you have other Valinor such as the Judgement of Nier or the Reluctance of Hurrian, who seem to have specific roles. The most prominent of these is the Judgement of Nier, who is the Valinor/being who acts as final judge of a human(kin) soul going to the Paradise of the Gods or to Beltine's Cauldron. This role seems WAY more powerful or important than simple foot soldiers or even commanders of the Host. This Valinor has power over souls that seems second only to Beltine herself, which (though in Nier's wheelhouse of responsibility to judge) makes me tilt my head in confusion as to why one of Beltine's own Valinor aren't involved. In fact, I wonder if perhaps the Judgement of Nier is similar to what we are told about Sarish's 'fallen' Valinor who were granted additional powers by other Gods. What I also find strange is that, despite his obvious authority and power (the Judgement of Nier was also involved in the final battle with Jeggal Sag), Manetas is still viewed as being the most powerful of the Valinor. Moving onto the Reluctance of Hurrian, as mentioned elsewhere the events of the storm showed that Valinor can do some very. . . unique things. In the Reluctance's case, (s)he seemed to be acting as a living prison to another Valinor, namely the Wrath of Hurrian. How this happened I cannot say, but the ability to trap the soul/body/mind/etc of a creature as powerful as a Valinor into another suggests some pretty powerful juju.

I will agree with you that overall literacy is probably higher on Onara than Europe between 500 BC and 1500 AD, but do remember that during the Roman Empire, literacy rates are only estimated to be between 7% and 16%. Even doubling that, you still have an average of only about 24%, which while impressive for the time still makes the transmission of written records (most of which are unique documents because of the lack of widespread printing presses) very difficult.