Ok,

so you think this should be applied to the talent or the path?

so there is still a potential for abuse here, simply because it grants a skill point.

EG, I build an Expert, Templar, Val, I can begin play with 4 ranks in Arcanum: Cants and no spellcasting(other than Prestidigitation), I take Sword saint as my first path, and then take Rudimentary Prayers and DSC(Divine Spell Casting) as my first advancement (or as separate advancements if you wish to quibble about taking them at the same time)

and now I'm a better caster than someone who is taking the more forthright path of Anointed priest, and buying their spell casting during character creation.


I think the best fix is removing the skill point from the "rudimentary " talents, but i don't think that's going to happen, barring that I think the best option is to add a line to the rudimentary talents akin to:
"you may not take Rudimentary Prayers if you otherwise qualify for Divine spell casting, or have divine spell casting"
and then making it a [Devout] talent, thus allowing access to it from templar and similar paths that allow devout talent access "as if you posses DSC"

I'm fine with the "if you have DSC (or ASC)" but I strongly disagree with the "if you qualify for DSC (or ASC)" clause. There are characters that qualify for ASC or DSC that take Rudimentary because it fits their concept better.

Qualify shouldn't restrict, only if you HAVE Rudementary Prayers or DSC (or ASC:SPS)

I agree that there should not be a restriction on "If you qualify for ASC/DSC" only "IF you possess ASC/DSC"

I think the cleanest way is this:

"If you already possess ASC/DSC this talent instead acts in all ways as Learn Spell."

John

Again, I think you should include Rudementary Prayers with the other Spell Casting Talent, because there is (possibly) ways of getting it multiple times which means it is either 1) a wasted talent (asw written), or 2) a very powerful version of Learn Spell (if you can take it multiple times).

There are ways to get numerous talents multiple times, which result in wasted talents. Weapon Training is the main one that specifically lists what to do. Many other talents are simply wasted and a *few* have specific guidelines. If you take several things with Rudimentary Spell Casting / Prayers, I'm okay with it not stacking due to the fact that it represents remedial learning of spells.

However, if it's decided to do so, it's easy enough to include

Special: If you receive this Talent a second time, it counts as "Learn Spell" in all respects.

John

You quoted me wrong.

Well thinking about it, the talent. It will prevent future issues.

I like John's approach to it.

ummm you cant take rudimentary talents more than once, just like you cant take any non tiered on specialized talent more than once

You can potentially take a background and a path or 2 paths that both give Rudimentary Prayers/Spell Casting.