Size Doesn’t Matter (Does it?)

I am for option 1 as it remains consistent with the rules. As Matt said, we can build what is written into the Bestiary into character creation. (This will also hopefully put our discussion on Sama in closure)

While I do like the simplicity of option 2, I believe the bonuses and downsides of being a particular size , large and small, should be emphasized.

We have not yet gone to developing the Ibon as of yet but from what I have garnered from their write up, I would consider them a medium sized creature but would give them the Huge talent for free at character creation.

In general, I’m for option #1. My only concern is game balance. It seems to me that Large sized PCs have a significant increase in combat ability which is not completely offset by their drawbacks (which are mostly “intangible” drawbacks like paying more for armor and the risk of not fitting into a small hole and being left out of an adventure, which is not likely to really happen.) {Kind of reminds me of the Paladin in the original AD&D rules… Way more powerful than the other classes because the role-playing penalties were supposed to offset them.}

In a nutshell, size Large provides too many benefits, IMO.

Assuming that you agree with this position, I suggest something like the following to offset it (blatantly stolen from the d20 system.)

Don’t give all of the size large abilities out at character creation, but instead, force players of Large PCs to take their first X advancements off of a new list. So, each of the four archetypes has a list of advancement options. Make a racial advancement table for “Size Large PCs”. (or possibly one for each PC-playable race that’s not Medium, if you think that’s necessary.) Make between 1 and 3 advancement options, depending on how many are needed to make the character balanced. And make each option selectable once, period. (i.e. not once per tier, but only once.) Also, these options must all be taken before any regular advancement options can be taken. Here is my suggestion for the chart…

Give “the ability to use Size-Large weapons at no penalty” out at character creation.
Size Large PCs Advancement Options
* -1 Avoidance; +1 Fortitude; +10 Stamina
* Powerful Attribute (Might); 10′ Reach with melee weapons

Aslo, as a side note, if you decide to give out the Powerful Attribute talent instead of Huge, make Huge an illegal option. Otherwise you’ll see Large sized PCs that also have the Huge Talent. And that’s just ugly.

Thoughts?

Scott

Powerful Attribute is MUCH more powerful than Huge. It gives an automatic die bump. As such, if I created a large Hero w/ Might 7, I am rolling a d12. Adding Huge to that would do virtually nothing (bump a Passive value). (That is why I suggested changing the Powerful Attribute to Huge Talent)

The only real benefit that Huge would be giving is the ability to use 2-handed weapons with 1 Hand. So, i ask you, does it make sense that a Black Talon or Human could get this benefit, where an Agamassi (or other large races) could not?

As soon as I can get to my notes, I will put in the proposed Agamssi rules so you guys can see what I mean….

Well, it seems the issue that we have here is balance vs. simplicity.

I agree that Large Creatures are granted a MASSIVE combat advantage in this set up. This is fine, in my opinion, for limited issue characters like the Aggamasi Ss’ressen Gladiators, but for regular play this is an issue. The two main ways that we seem to be going about dealing with this is 1) Adding flaws to make up for the fact that they are large (for small it is less of an issue as their size limits them in combat) and 2) by hand-waving away their size and say they are big Medium creatures (ie: via the Huge Talent). I am not a fan of the camp of ‘make up new rules just for this’ if we can get away without it because all this game needs is MORE rules to have to think about.

To that end, what penalties can we give Large-sized people like the Aggamasi or the Ibon?

Well, as I said the easiest way is to let them be large and all the joy that comes with it, including the Powerful Attribute (Might). The Defences balance out, which leaves the two biggest issues to deal with being the +10 to Stamina (a HUGE benefit, especially at character creation) and the Powerful Attribute (Might). Using the Flaws to balance out the benefits, we can use (possibly) flaws to negate the benefits of Powerful Attribute (Might) to an extent. The easiest two that currently exist are Bloodthirsty and Chilling Presence. These give social issues which, while in many ways less important than combat, are still noticeable in the game.

Hell, we can probably make up flaws like “Stands out in the crowd” which give similar social issues for Large creatures.

Now, the second issue was the ‘hand waving’ using talents and flaws to fake size while keeping them medium creatures. I stated above my easy way to do this, but I’m still not sure if that’s the best way.

The other way is to simply spell out what people get, not saying “Large, small, etc.”:

ie: The Agamassi are considered take up a 10′ by 10′ space. They gain a racial +1 to Fortitude, but a -1 to Avoidance. They gain a +1 to their Might score, but a -1 to their Quickness score. They may make use of standard-sized weapons as if they were Huge (ta), and can use large-sized armour and weapons without penalty beyond the standard non-proficiency penalties.

Similarly, for the Sama you could say “Though you are small, you are considered to take up the standard 5′ by 5′ square. You gain a +1 to avoidance, but your might die can never be above a d8. When travelling through a space considered one size too small for a regular hero, you may pass through this space at no penalty.”

While I fully understand the desire to go with the “simplicity” route, dealing with large-sized PCs is something that we’ll have to do at some point. Whether it’s because PCI introduces another PC-playable race or because some magical spell or effect increases your size. So, my proposal to make a racial advancement table was not intended to be specific to just the Agamasi.

My argument is this… You can’t justify adding flaws to “balance” the benefits of size large. For one, that would be…. insincere? (I’m having trouble finding the right word.) It’s just an obvious band-aid to impose balance. Not all large creatures deserve extra flaws. (Hopefully my point is coming across in this mess.)

Second, people want to play a large creature because that large creature has some fun bennies. Hand waiving away those benefits for PCs in the name of game balance takes away from the “coolness” of playing unusual races. I think you’ll end up with disappointed players. So I don’t like that idea either.

So how do you let someone play a “powerful” race (whether it’s powerful because it’s size Large or from special abilities like an il’Huan, a child of the sorcerer king, a voiceless one or whatever else) without blowing up game balance or manipulating the creature into some kind of wimpy version of its former self? I see two possible solutions. One is to start it out as a wimpy version of itself at tier 1.1 with a special advancement chart for each tier that will allow it to grow into its full glory. The other way is to set a baseline tier for the race that is higher than 1.1. For example, maybe the Agamasi is a Tier 1.4 creature. As a tier 1.4 creature, the first 4,000 experience it gains do nothing for it. Once it hits tier 1.5 then it can start taking advancement options. (Essentially, using a “Level Adjustment”, to borrow a term from d20.)

Of all the options presented thus far, I really don’t like the options that manipulate the PC-playable version of the race into something different from the rest of the race. Personally, I like the racial advancement chart. Yes, it’s a new rule. But the rule is not for a single race, it’s for all “powerful” races that may come in the future. Even though the Legends of Arcanis campaign may never allow players to play such a creature, home games probably will. (How many of you have played a Troll or an Ogre or some such in your home game at some point in your life?) We all know players enjoy that kind of thing every once in a while. So why not take this opportunity to set the rules for how to do that? This would kill two birds, so to speak.

Anyway, that’s my thought.
Scott

Hello everyopne,

Let’s go with the following:

Option 2) Alternate Sized Heroes get listed at the different sizes, but do not receive the listed bonuses/penalties. So, Large creatures (10×10) would receive:
a) no additional changes to listed Racial stats
b) ability to use large size weapons w/o penalty
c) 5′ reach

**Question: Why are they getting weapon damage die increased 1 die w/ no Speed increase). Is that just an artifact of the Large weapon or is it being added to simulate something?

Small creatures (5×5):
a) +1 Avoidance. This is in addition to any Racial defense modifiers.
b) Medium sized weapons are used at penalty. Small weapons (i believe) do 1 damage die less at same Speed. A small version of a d4 weapon (such as a dagger) would deal 1 damage.
c) Small sized creatures may take the Small Flaw.

**Question (as I don’t have my books in front of me) if they are al;ready Small, why the need for the Small Flaw?