Spells into Melee

Q: Ranged attackers have the martial technique Precise Aim to aid in firing into melee. How can I reduce penalties for casting spells into melee?
A: The talent Adaptation: Arcane Accuracy.

My comment was more so about just adding the suggestion of dealing with the negative effects of the ruling, as was done with Quick hands on the casting while using a bow question.

As written Adaptation: Arcane Accuracy requires Ranged (Marksman). Why not say any Ranged skill? For example, there’s just no good reason a Ss’ressen Shaman would have ‘Marksman’, since they can’t have flintlocks (legally).

I find the Ranged skill unnecessary as a requirement for this talent. Most casters would never utilize it and it becomes a wasted skill point which in this system are pretty precious. I think it should be removed as a requirement.

I think this was included to represent the very similar ‘skills’ needed to aim a gun (or crossbow) and point a spell not to hit. I’d personally be fine restricting it to Ranged (Any), but I personally like the flavour that the addition of this skill adds. It makes perfect sense to me in game as being trained in ranged implies your aim is good, but being trained in Arcanum means you can cast spells. They are not in any way similar, so you can’t just say that a regular Arcanum is sufficient.

I want to go a bit farther into this particular ruling however with the generic -4 penalty to all spells cast into melee. Its clear in many places this was not the intent and that only avoidance spells were subject to the -4 penalty for casting into melee as the only two talents in the books that reduce this penalty only reduce it for avoidance spells…

I believe it is listed as Avoidance and Fortitude. There was a discussion about this elsewhere on the forums. . .

My first opinion was non psychical spells being cast into melee shouldn’t be able to strike an unintended target. Which would negate any penalty for most discipline spells and some fort spells. However i believe that you need a uninterrupted line of effect for most if not all spells.

You still have to aim a Castigate which targets discipline, and it isn’t a ‘physical spell’ because you are aiming the spell at a specific person. I like the idea of ALL ranged spells taking the penalty (and this is from an Elemental Bolt, Castigate, etc caster) for simplicity, with various talents to counteract this issue.

Explain to me why Blessed Devotions doesn’t have ranged marksman as a requirement to it then?

Also as of this proposed FAQ it is listed as all three spell types not just Avoidance and Fortitude.

Q: Is there a penalty for casting spells into
melee?

A: Yes, casting spells into melee incur a -4
penalty to the casters attack roll, regardless of
the targeted defense. Ranged spells are
considered ranged attacks and are covered
under Cover rules on page 305 (and clarified in
errata below)

Divine spells operate using different physics? Not going to buy into that one Cody

You even said above you have to Aim Castigate which is a divine spell. And if you think it was included to represent the very similar skills needed to aim a gun or crossbow then it should apply to the divine talent as well.

I think that the olive-branch was that Blessed devotions is a much better talent… 1 talent removes the entire penalty with no Adaption costs.

The other Tiers of Arcane Accuracy are nice though but those adaption costs add up and so do taking it three times as a talent.

Personally I would like to see the ranged marksman req removed from Arcane Accuracy and if the -4 penalty effects all spell types then i would like to see the two talents Arcane Accuracy and Blessed devotions cover all three types of spells.

Just to clarify this is coming from a Sarishan who can take either talent and apply it to her spells…

~Tony

Arcane =/= Divine?

In universe, Divine spells operate using slightly different physics than Arcane, so that might be the source. Also, please remember that Divine cannot be combined so maybe this was their olive-branch?

Yeah. Though my understanding is that once the Arcanum has been manipulated its all the same “energy” flying around I do remember it as kinda that. Here is what I remember from the old forum:

When the fast play and then the original core book came out everyone created advanced spells. Then someone said … “wait a minute. If the Cants are by rote how the heck do we change them on the fly to create our “new” advanced spells? That’s not by rote.” A huge debate followed and much electronic ink was expended.

One position (now rejected) said, “Screw it, the rules don’t say I can’t make advanced divine spells so I am …” Another position (now rejected) chimed in and said, “hey you know what, given that divine spells are rote I don’t think you should be able to use adaptation talents with them either…” Insert the South Parks sounds of “RobbleRobbleRobble.” Eventually we got to the point where we are now. You can’t make advanced spells out of the divine stuff, but you can use adaptation talents.

*BUT MEAN WHILE* Codex of Heroes was being finalized … and lo, it looks like someone wrote up Blessed Devotions so it wasn’t an adaptation talent (so even if the old forum reached a consensus or Henry decreed that adaptations wouldn’t be allowed with divine spells, then there would still be a way to fire them (divine spells) into combat without a -4 penalty).

I don’t always like the wonky parts of the game, but I do like this. Possibly there once was a cants version of Arcane Accuracy … I like to think its been lost over the ages. Blessed Devotions is either a similar means to the same end or a software patch of some sort to cover for the deficiency.

Personally I would like to see the ranged marksman req removed from Arcane Accuracy and if the -4 penalty effects all spell types then i would like to see the two talents Arcane Accuracy and Blessed devotions cover all three types of spells.The Marksman req bothered me too. How about ranged any? Why would an elorii or Yhing Hir have ranged Marksman? This pretty much bars any Shaman or Elder caster from this talent.

has been errata’d to Range (any)