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- September 12, 2014 at 8:54 am #151493AnonymousInactive
The forums have been quiet of late. So let me stir the pot. As everyone knows the current story line is called the Coming of the Destroyer. Far more than any of the other story lines we’ve seen from PCI, this one is riddled with prophesies. Although I’ve trade emails with several people on the topic, we lack a thread on the forums for our theories, or an aggregation of our thoughts.
So I’d like to open the topic and start with what I think of as the BIG 3 questions?
(1) At the widest scope: Is the Destroyer inevitable as a matter of the campaign plot? Or can we somehow make choices that would allow us to escape from under a pretty dark and dismal set of prophesies?
(2) How do people interpret the prophesies that we have? I would like to currently exclude the prophesy from Words of the Seer (at Origins formerly labeled the Mountain and the Phoenix). Since that module just came out, and there are presumably a lot of people that haven’t played it yet. I think the prophesies from Into the Blessed Lands and the Vault of Larissa are fair game. As are any other “older” sources people might want to discuss.
(3) Finally what, if any, actions should players (and characters) be thinking about taking in light of the prophesies? The answer to 3 in my mind is heavily dependent on what is the answer to 1.
I’ve listed the prophesies bellow:
[From: Into the Blessed Lands]:
“My brethren were gifted with a vision, a terrible one which showed unto us the image of the God-Emperor, who would stride out from the Hidden Lands and be welcomed as Liberator only to take the Holiest of Holies by shedding the blood of the most innocent.“The very mention of his name shall make kings tremble, stop the heart of an Emperor and cause that which was endless to end. In his wake an entire people shall be liberated, their curse lifted but at the cost of their brother; while another is damned forever more in the eyes of all.
“And about his head floated twelve keys that shall unlock that which it most craves.
“But beware – though called savior by many and his followers legion, his true name is the Destroyer! The Enslaver of Humanity! None may stay his hand but the ember that is bereft of fire and even then it may not be enough, for when faith fails in one, faith will fail in us all!
[The Vault of Larissa]
“Out of the west, thousands of pounding feet
Rush towards our beloved city
They shall first be saviors, then conquerors
He shall wear the crown of many kings
And Emperors will fall dead before him
The last was first and lost to us before she was found
Only the invisible knew her name
Until the god emperor stood on this ground.”[Codex of Heroes pg 16 – admittedly foreshadowing rather than straight prophesy]
From the far west a storm roils, a storm of vengeance against treacherous souls.They sought to wash their hands of them and send them to their deaths. Where others found death, they survived; where others fell into thralldom they prospered.
They shall return and exact their vengeance upon those that cast them aside as if they were bitter fruit worthy only for the garbage heap. May the Gods have mercy on all those who stand in their way!
[Grains of Sand – a module from the old campaign that had a trove of prophesy. I’ve tuned blue the ones I am confident have already come true in the old campaign]
One million grains of sand can blot out the sun. The cat plays with the bird until it is ready to pounce. One thousand years is not forever. When the sword sows only bones, the scythe reaps only blood. One whisper in the silence can shake the pillars of heaven.
The Hegemony rises upon the coils of its ally. Woe to the powerful who scorned the least of the thirteen. Their secret shall tear the falcon in twain.
The child finally meets the Father. In blood it was begun and in blood it will end. Some will drink deeply, others will bathe in it.
Within their metal hives they ride upon the minds and eat of their sentiments. Man is cattle to Man. The wheel turns, as the beaten child becomes the beating parent.
Proclamation. Devastation. Prostration. Those who hold back the night fall. Shall any light be rekindled or shall the dead lie quiet within Neroth’s embrace?
The Standard lost, the army is demoralized. Loss begets loss as the City of Delights falls. [The Standard Lost probably refers to events in the rebellion/liberation of Abesios … but Savona never fell]
September 12, 2014 at 9:57 am #264838frootsnaxParticipantSo my personal OOC take on things …
(1) This isn’t a moot/trivial question. While my main character is very serious about trying to scuttle the prophesies, I’m not trying to poke Henry and the campaign staff in the eye either. To make certain adventures run, it may be that certain events need to happen and the campaign isn’t open to their modification. Still we’ve collectively poked serious holes in Henry’s plans before in LARPs and other events so I am guessing that while there is a certain “narrative inertia” we have some ability & agency to influence if things are better or worse. Its possible player actions directly or indirectly in the last campaign saved Savona from being invaded and seized by the Myrantians despite a prophesy that suggests Savona was doomed (in the alternative there may be a future Banner that will be lost causing Savona to be conquered).
(2) As I’ve written in Tukufu’s letters I think the Destroyer/God Emperor is going to be a mature Calemnon with an army at his back and truly exceptional psionic abilities. My Break down:
Can we tell where the God Emperor is coming from? Probably: “the God-Emperor, who would stride out from the Hidden Lands” and “Out of the west, thousands of pounding feet/Rush towards our beloved city.” So we’re looking for hidden lands to the West of the First City. There’s a lot of mysterious lands to the west like the Andai Ascedency, the Godless, the remnants of the Ossarion Empire. But none of them are “Hidden.” Dhar Zhan Vor is to the West and is very much hidden. So that’s where I believe the God Emperor is coming from (and where Calemnon disappeared from). But I’ve had at least on other person suggest that Xercel might also fit the bill leading the Remnants of Ravan Tindal.
It seems clear to me that who ever the God Emperor is he wants to sit on the Throne of Man. “And about his head floated twelve keys that shall unlock that which it most craves.” The Throne of Man from the First Imperium was locked away with indestructible 12 keys.
It’s also clear to me that the guy starts off with good press. “Though called savior by many and his followers legion,” and “They shall first be saviors, then conquerors.” So I assume the Destroyer is going to save the First City from some big threat before metastasizing into an even worse problem.
(3) So what can or should we do?
September 12, 2014 at 1:14 pm #264839AnonymousInactiveI had a slightly different take on things:[From: Into the Blessed Lands]:
“My brethren were gifted with a vision, a terrible one which showed unto us the image of the God-Emperor, who would stride out from the Hidden Lands and be welcomed as Liberator only to take the Holiest of Holies by shedding the blood of the most innocent.“The very mention of his name shall make kings tremble, stop the heart of an Emperor and cause that which was endless to end. In his wake an entire people shall be liberated, their curse lifted but at the cost of their brother; while another is damned forever more in the eyes of all.
“And about his head floated twelve keys that shall unlock that which it most craves.
“But beware – though called savior by many and his followers legion, his true name is the Destroyer! The Enslaver of Humanity! None may stay his hand but the ember that is bereft of fire and even then it may not be enough, for when faith fails in one, faith will fail in us all!The frequent references to Emperor do make it easy to think about Calemnon, but the last sentence makes me think of the True Dragon and the events leading up to this year’s BI. [The Vault of Larissa]
“Out of the west, thousands of pounding feet
Rush towards our beloved city
They shall first be saviors, then conquerors
He shall wear the crown of many kings
And Emperors will fall dead before him
The last was first and lost to us before she was found
Only the invisible knew her name
Until the god emperor stood on this ground.”Again, sounds like the events leading up to the BI. ‘Thousands of pounding feet’ could refer to the Tultipetans who converted to the worship, or possibly the army that invaded. [Grains of Sand – a module from the old campaign that had a trove of prophesy. I’ve tuned blue the ones I am confident have already come true in the old campaign]One million grains of sand can blot out the sun. The cat plays with the bird until it is ready to pounce. One thousand years is not forever. When the sword sows only bones, the scythe reaps only blood. One whisper in the silence can shake the pillars of heaven.
The Hegemony rises upon the coils of its ally. Woe to the powerful who scorned the least of the thirteen. Their secret shall tear the falcon in twain.
The child finally meets the Father. In blood it was begun and in blood it will end. Some will drink deeply, others will bathe in it.
Within their metal hives they ride upon the minds and eat of their sentiments. Man is cattle to Man. The wheel turns, as the beaten child becomes the beating parent.
Proclamation. Devastation. Prostration. Those who hold back the night fall. Shall any light be rekindled or shall the dead lie quiet within Neroth’s embrace?
The Standard lost, the army is demoralized. Loss begets loss as the City of Delights falls. [The Standard Lost probably refers to events in the rebellion/liberation of Abesios … but Savona never fell]Lots of stuff going on here, I agree that they are likely talking about separate incidents. Reference to ‘the coils of its ally’ makes me think of the True Dragons, and were there not thirteen of them? I’m curious about the ‘metal hives’, guessing that it could be talking about the VO…but hard to say.
September 12, 2014 at 1:58 pm #264840AnonymousInactiveThe forums have been quiet of late. So let me stir the pot.
Thanks, Eric! I was thinking the same thing, but couldn’t think of a topic.
September 12, 2014 at 2:15 pm #264841AnonymousInactivePersonally, I’m of the opinion that this relates to the val'[REDACTED] based on the line “The last was first and lost to us before she was found/Only the invisible knew her name”
::Runs away from certain members of this community::
September 12, 2014 at 11:08 pm #264844frootsnaxParticipantAt Acurrier:
I agree that the Dragon Villa’Tavorentis is clearly hip deep in the prophesies. But looking at my maps I’m not sure if Tultipet really is West. In the Old Codex Map its NW of the First City. In the map from the Old Centurions Blog I think it’s maybe more North (Its not marked so I’m guesstimating). Either way I think you could just as easily say North of the First City rather than the East/West. …Of course one could also say that Dhar Zhan Vor is more South than West too.
But I don’t like the “Dragon Argument” becuse its not clear to me why a Dragon would want to collect the 12 Keys and sit ion the Throne of Man … assumings thats somehow physically possible given the massive size of Villa’Tavorentis.
My best guess at the moment is that the prophesy is self fulfilling. Because of the Prophesy the Dragon believes it is in danger. Because its in danger it wants to secure the Throne of Man so the prophesy can’t come to pass. Because it attacks the First City the Destroyer has a chance to come in (from the west) as a savoir.
September 13, 2014 at 1:57 am #264845AnonymousInactiveBut I don’t like the “Dragon Argument” becuse its not clear to me why a Dragon would want to collect the 12 Keys and sit ion the Throne of Man … assumings thats somehow physically possible given the massive size of Villa’Tavorentis.
Do you think the keys are actually keys and the throne is actually a throne? Seems a little too obvious to be one of Henry’s creations.
September 13, 2014 at 2:00 am #264846AnonymousInactiveThe throne is absolutely an actual throne.
The keys are actual keys as well; they’re particularly long, can probably be broken down into component parts (bow, stem, collar, bit, etc…), but they are physical keys. Parts of various ones have been found over the years. Hints of others as well. The Vault of Larissa’s Lament had one at one point…
September 13, 2014 at 1:05 pm #264851AnonymousInactiveI suspect it’s more than just a throne. Given all that’s been said about it I imagine it controls something or enables the person sitting on to activate something. I can’t help but think of the “chair” in Stargate that activates the defense mechanism in Atlantis. If you have the right gene (Ancient) the chair responds otherwise it’s just a chair.
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On a related note I was thinking about posting this very topic but Eric beat me to it. Just as well he’s far more articulate.
What got me thinking about it was reading the back story in the mod Words of the Seer and realizing that a True Dragon was scared of the Destroyer. The got my attention. If it is Calmemnon he is definitely not human or even val anymore. Remember it took multiple Valinor to subdue these Dragons and not all were successful. I still wonder who would win in a fight Manetas or Villa’Tavorentes?September 13, 2014 at 2:33 pm #264854AnonymousInactiveI’m thinking the Throne is literally the Throne of Man: Illiir’s Gift to Mankind (similar to Anshar’s Temples, Larissa’s Labrynth, Althare’s Language, etc). This chair is not simply a chair, but some super-powerful divine artifact which is also recognized as THE tool which unifies all of humanity.
September 13, 2014 at 3:03 pm #264857AnonymousInactiveA tool which unifies mankind…which the destroyer seeks. An artifact that could be corrupted? Perhaps could be used to enslave mankind?
September 13, 2014 at 7:19 pm #264860frootsnaxParticipant::takes on his Tukufu voice::
“Well if we turn to Sarenta val’Mehan’s Catalogue of Wondrous Artifacts we see that she claims the Imperator, sitting on the Throne of Man, was allegedly able to issue binding commands that all who heard were forced to obey. And that power extended even beyond his immediate court, for when a messenger was given a “compulsion” by the Imperator it not only affected him or her but also the next person the messenger repeated the compulsion to.
“Personally I find that kind of power frightening. One hopes Sarenta was misinformed or perhaps given to exaggerating. Still she was once part of the Legion of Vigilance and a I fear she might have just been writing what she had heard.”
::end Tukufu voice::
September 13, 2014 at 7:24 pm #264861frootsnaxParticipantThe throne is absolutely an actual throne.
The keys are actual keys as well…snip…
Dude, is it Christmas?!? That might have been the straightest answer ever from a campaign staff member.
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September 14, 2014 at 4:17 pm #264863AnonymousInactive::the sickining gnome with the pet head speaks up::
I think we are missing the point on the whole destroyer of worlds thing. I mean really if the gods cared they wouldn’t let the destroyer come in the first place. Personally, I think we should just follow along and let the prophsey happen as told. Then IF the gods interceed we will know if they exist (or care.) I mean why should any beliver fear the destroyer of worlds? IF it is important wouldn’t your gods interceed on your behalf? That is what you profess to belive isn’t it?
As an additional aside, I think it was a mistake to stop the relase of the dragon at Tier Betoc. Imagine, the destoryer of worlds armed with a true dragon! Certainly your gods would interceed to prevent any and all chaos that would result from such a combo. Unless of course you conceed your gods don’t care anymore.
September 15, 2014 at 12:25 am #264868frootsnaxParticipant…snip…Personally, I think we should just follow along and let the prophesy happen as told. Then IF the gods intercede we will know if they exist (or care.) I mean why should any believer fear the destroyer of worlds? IF it is important wouldn’t your gods intercede on your behalf?…snip…
::”As embarrassed as I am to admit it, amid the ramblings the gnome raises a valid point.
“It may well be that we should let the prophesy unfold without fighting against it. Perhaps the orb recovered from the Vault of Larissa’s Lament is a questionable source. But the other prophesies have come from Illirite monks, A faithful Tultipetan Seer and Larissian Oracles. The Prophesy of the Destroyer itself comes from the Gods. Or at least the valinor.
“Why would celestial agents unleash this prophesy? Especially when parts of it seem to be self-fulfilling. I can only assume that in the larger picture it is somehow necessary that we pass through this test. AFfter the Destroyer shows his hand we will need to find and field the ’ember that is bereft of fire’ and perhaps restore its/his/her faith.”::
-Tukufu
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