Assessing and hopefully fixing the Martial Archetype

Let me start this thread by stating clearly that I’m looking to fix the Martial Archetypes rather than weakening the cores of what makes the other Archetypes special.

The more I see the rules in operation and the available options, the more I believe that there’s an increasing gap between the Martial Archetype and the others. For more than 20 years when I look at new fantasy systems I always evaluate how the martial character and especially the melee characters stack up against their counterparts. In D&D, how often did you see a primary or exclusive fighter build until getting to a prestige class?

Consider the core of what makes each Archetype useful.
Arcane – casting, Prestidigitation plus Arcane Spell Casting yields 11 spells, 6-7 of which scale from Tier I through Tier V at no additional investment beyond keeping up a single skill. Adaptations within the spell ensure that the capabilities expand without needing additional adaptations, though they are available to further enhance. They are powerful in combat, and flexible with non-combat spells. They also excel at deceit, stealth and a wide variety of Lore skills. They are sages, healers, scouts and more.

Divine – casting, Prestidigitation plus Arcane Spell Casting yields 11 spells, 6-7 of which scale from Tier I through Tier V at no additional investment beyond keeping up a single skill. Adaptations within the spell ensure that the capabilities expand without needing additional adaptations, though they are available to further enhance. They are powerful in combat, and flexible with non-combat spells. They also excel at social skills, deep knowledge of religion and a skill core to the god they follow.

Experts – skill mastery both in and out of combat. Easily able to master combat, spell casting or both. Their breadth of knowledge and ability is vast especially given their ability to add more. Should they choose Divine Spell Casting, Arcane Spell Casting: Shaman or Arcane Spell Casting: Psionic under Undisciplined Psion they are easily a match within the core talents as any casting Archetype. If desired they also can easily qualify for the full 11 spells and able to keep up.

Martial – combat. They end up with more weapon options, more armor options than the others and perhaps a Martial Technique. They likely start with Weapon Mastery in 1 or more weapons. They are physical and athletic and can be sneaky with perhaps a bit more starting Mettle. Except for navigating physical challenges, their non-combat options are extremely limited. While they can add flexibility at 2 ranks / tier, all other Archetypes have the same and if they do, it’s at the expense of other combat skills. Nothing at all compares to the spell casting.

Let’s look at the ongoing options.

Arcane – 4.5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+1 to Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Lore skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
If desired 10 skills at max ranks covering a wide range of non-combat skills and their primary combat skill (Arcanum)
Half of their 2 two Arcane Talents is their Arcane Spell Casting. This yields 4/4/3/5 additional spells over the course of Tiers 2 through 5 for a total of 27 spells

Divine – 4.5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely a Logic 5 for 6 skills
+1 to Arcanum, Knowledge: Religion, god’s skill
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Social skills, likely a Logic of 5 for 6 skills. While there are only 5, Perception can be added for a Talent
If desired 9 skills at max ranks covering Perception Knowledge: Religion, all social skills and their primary combat skill (Arcanum)
Half of their 2 two Devout Talents is their Arcane Spell Casting. This yields 4/4/3/5 additional spells over the course of Tiers 2 through 5 for a total of 27 spells

Expert – 5 Advancements
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Lore skills, likely 8 by at least Tier 2 for 7 skills
+2/Tier to 2 new skills – 10 skills over 5 Tiers ending with no further investment as follows 2 each at +7/+8/+9/+10/+11
+2/Tier to 2 new skills – 10 skills over 5 Tiers ending with no further investment as follows 2 each at +7/+8/+9/+10/+11
7 skills at 3 ranks/tier [15+starting +min 1] + 20 additional skills at a minimum of +7

The flexibility of the above in and out of combat situations is incredible – lore skills, physical, combat, social, artisan are all there for the taking.

Going Martial instead they could as many Martial Skills at max ranks with all the weapon tricks
They can easily do both casting and Martial Skills at max ranks with minimal investments (3 skills – Arcanum, Melee, and Ranged)

Non-casting Expert, Bowman
Key ranged Martial Techniques (at least with bows) (8-9)
1. Precise Aim (T1)
2. Rapid Shot (T1)
3. Unbalancing Attack (T1)
4. Careful Aim (T2)
5. Splitting Hairs (T2)
6. Blinding Strike or Snap Shot (T3) – maybe
7. Shattering Shot (T4)
8. Deadeye Shot (T4)
9. Moment of Prescience (T5)

Key ranged Combat Talents
1. Quickshot, also requires Quickdraw (replaced in many cases with Rapid Shot)
2. Hawkeye – I through V
3. Deadly Accuracy
4. Weapon Mastery I through V

Some of the above can be gotten from Paths. It’s certainly possible to ignore combat, but the above represents a fully tricked out, maxed out Archer. You can be very effective without taking everything. Avoiding Weapon Mastery “costs” +1 to hit and an average of 3 points of damage. Not following it does lose out on Criticals on double 8s or double 9s which is a +2% chance for a critical.

Hawkeye is more significant and Quickshot can probably be avoided. So 5 Talents. Most critical of the above ranged Martial Techniques are
1. Precise Aim (T1)
2. Rapid Shot (T1)
3. Careful Aim (T2)
4. Splitting Hairs (T2)
5. Blinding Strike or Snap Shot (T3)
6. Deadeye Shot (T4)
7. Moment of Prescience (T5)

As it stands the T3 isn’t required, cutting that to 6. The most likely change to Martial Techniques requirements would still eliminate it as there are 4 techniques before getting to T4.

So 6 techniques + 5 talents can make a significantly dangerous archer. Easily within range of the Any 2 Talents + either 1 more advancement or a Path that covers 1 of the options. A single Path tier of Bowman grants Hawkeye plus an Heirloom bow.

To be clear, this isn’t just an awesome archer for Experts, but for Arcane or Divine as well and again within reach.

NOTE: Will add the Melee write up as soon as time allows.

Casting Expert
They can start with Spell Casting or easily add it Tier 1 with the same 11/+4/+4/+3/+5 = 27 spells. They will or certainly can have the same casting ranks as a dedicated casting Archetype. They lose out on even greater spell breadth or some additional adaptations. Again they can recover up to 10 – 15 spells/Arcane or Devout Talents through any 2 talents and the +1 talent option. Even without those additions, the 20+ scaled spells to Tier 5 effectiveness is huge.

For all 3 Archtypes, 22 – 23 spells advance in power to be effective at Tier 5 with no additional investment beyond the Arcanum skill.

Martial Characters
+1 to all Skills
+1 to Any 3 + Passive Logic skills, likely a Logic 5 for 6 skills
+1 to 3 + Passive Logic Combat and Physical skills, likely a Logic of 5 for 6 skills. If desired Perception can be added for a Talent
2 Martial Techniques per tier for a total of 10

There is no skill flexibility or much use outside of combat beyond overcoming some physical challenges. Any that’s available by pursuing skills at 2 ranks/Tier are available to the other Archetypes without sacrificing their core strengths or power. Switching weapons in combat is time consuming and requires significant additional investment in the weapons to make them useful.

Martial Techniques don’t scale like spells do, neither do weapon tricks. Weapon tricks often end at Tier 3 decreasing the benefit and options for skills above 9 ranks. Combat talents don’t come close to scaling or the power of spells.

Cherry picking allows for the other Archetypes to pick the most useful and/or powerful of the Combat Talents and Martial Techniques. There’s virtually no governors on almost any of them that limit the other 3 Archetypes’ access. And this is what they’re doing when they’re NOT using their most powerful abilities, i.e. recovering from strain. Their 2nd tier is equal or almost equal to the Martial character’s best.

Any Martial Technique through Tier 4 are easily accessible to all the other Archetypes, without as some have pointed out any requirement for previous tiers techniques. All Tier 5 martial techniques are easily accessible to Experts and with some effort to Arcane or Divine casters. War Mage and War Priest talents only make that easier. They do trade 10 spells for it which leaves the caster at 15 – 16 scaling spells + more vs. the 10 Martial Techniques. With the Learn Spell Talent as the other half of their primary advancement, even the loss of spells is fairly easily negated. And again, those scale where the techniques do not.

Don’t believe me? Build the best, most flexible characters you can within each Archetype at any tier, especially the higher ones. Leave Martial Archetypes as non-casters, otherwise it only reinforces the fact that casting is required to match usefulness at the higher tiers.

So with all that said, I’d like to figure out ways of fixing the Martial Archetype. What changes to advancements, martial techniques, combat talents etc. need to be made to make them useful?

If you feel I’m way off base, provide some evidence to substantiate the claims. I’d be happy to be wrong. Perhaps I’m just bad at seeing possibilities, combinations or ways to truly make them useful. In which case I can use this as a learning experience.

Respectfully and with a sweep of his hat,

Paul