Background Talents

I’m pretty much on page with Paul here. Step 2 specifically says “may ignore prereqs” to me, but Step 9 says that you cannot. If a Background grants you a talent specifically that you wouldn’t otherwise get, that is great, but the “Any talent” (not a specific thing) you must qualify for.

My reading is the same as Paul and Cody. You can ignore pre-reqs in step 2 and for specifically (by name) given talents but you must meet all pre-reqs for talents chosen in step 9 or when choosing “any xxx talent” (except during step 2).

Background talents do bypass requirements (page 170). A talent given by a background is finalized in step 9, but it’s still given by a background. The “must meet perquisites” refers to the two (or three with a flaw) that you obtain in step 9.

The note about Background Talents bypassing requirements are to allow for Former Slave to grant “Lost in the Crowd” which otherwise requires Logic 5, Stealth and Streetwise as trained skills without needing those to be present.

Otherwise following that logic The Perfect Cut (Req: Hero Tier IV, Prowess and Insight 7, 14 ranks in any Melee skill) or a Tier V Martial Technique is a completely legitimate choice for one of those talents. This interpretation would be further reinforced by the explicit limiting of the Archetype talents to Tier I, no racial exceptions etc, while the any Background talents are not likewise limited.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

It would be easier to add the limitations to Page 170 than every separate occurance.

Suggested clean up:

Requirements
When a Talent is taken, you must meet all stated requirements, except when the Talent is acquired through an Archetype, Background, or Path. Some requirements will have the following notations: (b) for Backgrounds, (ta) for Talents, (pa) for Paths, and (a) for Archetypes.
This does not allow you to bypass the Limited notation or Racial type. The Tiered type can still by bypassed if you meet all previous Tiers (but is still not available until you are the correct Tier).
Clarification: Talents that grant other psuedo-talents may change the available Tier. This most often occurs with the Learn Fighting Style talent.

I’d like to summarize the options for easy reference and ruling by someone official. I am happy to edit this post until everyone agrees upon the intent of the options. The specific wording to implement in the errata can be determined after. At it’s heart this discussion of what’s intended to be allowed. It is very clear that both sides of the argument are entrenched and logical arguments are not swaying either side. I am breaking out Backgrounds from Paths in case the ruling is different for them. So, for the options:

Backgrounds
Option 1: Background talents that fall into “Choose any X talent” where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections function like the Archetype talent per the 4.3 Errata and have all requirements waived save the exceptions detailed therein. Specifically: “regardless of requirements with the exception of limited Talents, Talents above Tier I, and racial limitations.”

Option 2: Background talents that fall into “Choose any X talent” where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections require the Hero to meet all listed prerequisites in order to take. The reference to ignoring prerequisites is specific to explicitly named talents such as Masterful Defense, Lost in the Crowd etc. The Hero must take a legally available talent when the talent choice is earned.

Paths
Option 1: Path talents that fall into “Choose any X talent” where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections function like the Archetype talent per the 4.3 Errata and have all requirements waived save the exceptions detailed therein. Specifically excluding limited Talents, Talents above the character’s current Tier, and racial limitations.

Option 2: Path talents that fall into “Choose any X talent” where X is replaced by Skill, Combat, etc. as well as talents such as Learn Martial Technique that have sub-selections require the Hero to meet all listed prerequisites in order to take. The reference to ignoring prerequisites is specific to explicitly named talents such as Masterful Defense, Lost in the Crowd etc. The Hero must take a legally available talent when the talent choice is earned.

I invite both sides to participate in the word-smithing so that at the end of the day we’re all comfortable accepting whatever ruling is made.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I’ve been reading it as option #2 (only archetype ignores pre-reqs for “any X talent”).

I’m kind of mixed on how I think it should work. On the one hand, restricting it to archetype ignoring pre-reqs makes the archetype choice more important (my wife chose Expert for her Ssressen just so she could get Quick with Quickness of 3 – if background/path allowed the same thing, she likely would have looked for a different way to get it). On the other hand, it would allow more flexibility and may help make some backgrounds/paths more attractive (I haven’t checked to see which ones give “any X talent”).

I have always read it that the “ignore prerequisites” text refers only to those talents specifically offered at any step of the process – be it archetype, background, or path. Specific talents are those that are core to the concept of whatever selection you have.

For example, an arcanist HAS to have ASC or they’re simply not an arcanist. However, by taking the archetype they don’t have to have the prerequisite skill ranks or ability score, meaning they’re a natural while someone else has to train and work hard for the ability.

However, nothing about being an expert says you have to be quick. You can be an expert and be as slow as a particularly stagnant brick. It’s not inherent, therefore you have to meet the prerequisite.