Casting ranged spells into melee?

As long as the templates line up on the proper edges of the “squares” the potential targets occupy, they’re doing what they’re supposed to do, but remember to levy whatever penalties are appropriate (firing into melee, cover, what not).

Back on the original subject, there has not, to my knowledge, been a change to the rules (old forums or otherwise). Avoidance and Fortitude DO get a penalty for firing into melee (though talents can help with the former), while Discipline does NOT.

On the old forums the ruling was any and all ranged attacks, powers and spells took the negative 4. Spells are powerful enough cited as one of the reasons. They didn’t need anymore help.

That is what I thought as well. I don’t remember spells vs. Discipline being given a special exception. Iirc, the benefit to avoid the penalty was only negated to Avoidance via Arcane Accuracy/Blessed Inscriptions because Discipline and Fortitude were considered easier to hit, anyway.

My recollection was that there was an exception for Discipline. This may have changed over time, but that’s what I remember. Maybe Pedro can give us an official clarification.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

In all fairness, I tend to apply then penalty even with Discipline for consistency. After all, there is NOTHING in the rules to say otherwise. I do remember posts on the old boards that say otherwise, but until they are in a format we can refer to, nobody has a clear recollection of them and they are not (necessarily) LA official.

Add to an errata or have a PCI post, and I’m all for it. Personally, all should be kept the same IMHO.

I’m fine with waiting until Pedro has a chance to chime in. However, I disagree that the rules say non-Avoidance spells are affected.

Cover is relevant if the physical barrier is sufficient to impede attacks, rather than the ability to sense the target.

For Avoidance spells, it’s usually obvious that the spell has a physical form (elemental bolt) but for Fortitude or Discipline targeting spells, it’s unclear to me that there’s anything to impede (the spells are dependent on sensing the target – not on physically targeting them). Of course, it’s possible I’ve missed another section of the rules that makes it clear that non-Avoidance spells should be affected by cover. It could also be that I’m just reading too much into the distinction.

Also, a related question – do area spells suffer firing into melee penalties? In most games, they don’t but someone made a comment (don’t remember if it was in this thread or not) that made it seem like they do in Arcanis.

I believe the problem is that Very compelling arguments could be made for both sides of the argument.

On one hand Spell Attacks on discipline are things that target the mind, So why are they different than other ranged attacks that attack discipline (a thrown knife at the outset of an unbalancing attack for example)

Or a mental scream done at range is a purely mental action, what am I doing to cause a free attack?

….Etc.
My point is that we could go on for quite a long while with example and counterexample all of which are arguing about a rule that is necessarily abstract, there is a list of things that provoke free strikes, rather than a set of conditions that form a logical test to indicate a free strike.

That last statement was somewhat cumbersome, please allow me to expand it some: If we had a set of conditions that were listed such as “a task that requires a significant amount of mental focus” or taking an “untactically sound action in melee range” there might be room to argue the points and examples.

Instead we have a list of what is and isn’t allowed, and a group recollection that there was some specific ruling on it.

Couple of side points
-I’m good with the rule either way
-I’m not attacking anyone.
-Both arguments above have flaws in them and are not good arguments (imo)

Thanks for chiming in. I’m fine with that. The only thing that seems odd is that Arcane Accuracy exists to help Avoidance targeting spells but not anything similar for Fortitude or Discipline targeting spells. At least based on a full perusal of one BI, there isn’t significant differences in defense numbers. Has any thought been given to similar adaptation talents for the other spells? Or are Fortitude and Discipline spells enough better that the added penalty seems appropriate? Diminish Senses is good enough I’d still pick it anyway but some other ones don’t seem so (and I certainly haven’t looked at all of the T1 spells in that much detail).

Has any thought been given to similar adaptation talents for the other spells?

Under consideration, but doubtful… as things go Fort and Disc targeting spells have more catastrophic effects (for the most part)
That was your answer last time too.