Casting with Subtlety Questions

3. Is there a way to tell what caused a particular effect?

This is what the Perception check (passive or active) is for. If the caster beats the passive Perception or active Perception of those observing, then they can’t tell what caused the effect. If the spell is one that would require the caster to interact with something or someone to continue it or to change the effect, I would think another roll would be appropriate.
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I think the rules for Arcanum : Sense Magic apply to this instead of perception, YMMV

1. Can you use casting with subtlety during combat with an obvious effect spell to obscure who cast it? Example casting an elemental bolt of air.
Yes. But remember certain sources are more obvious than others. Elemental Bolt of Air will be much easier to pull off casting subtlety than say Elemental Bolt of Fire.

2. Is there a way for a caster using discern residue or something similar to be able to determine who cast an active spell (binding or scene)?
Who cast it? No. But sources can be determined if rolled well enough (example: Determining if spell was Binding, Instant, Elder, Primal, Psionic, etc, etc, etc).

There is nothing in the rules to differentiate the Casting with Subtlety based upon source. Any changes would be a house rule.

John

Pg. 349 Main Rule Book – “Bonuses and penalties are at the Chronicler’s discretion.

Example: Hiding the creation of a Gladius of Light in a dark room would nearly impossible, but forming a dagger out of shadow with Manipulation of Shadow would be significantly easier ….”

If that’s not an illustration of Casting subtlety based on sources, then I have no idea what is

I really think this thread has become moribund with minutia.

Here is my interpretation of the rules: Yeah you can do things subtly, the significant price in CTN and speed means that (to me) its not intended to be used in combat all of the time. and if you do, It’s then relegated to an opposed stealth roll to try to make it work.

in particular its some thing that would seriously hinder your character if you did it all of the time, but its possible to do if its warranted and your skilled enough

To be fair, those are situational bonuses or penalties and not based on source alone. A gladiolus of light summoned in an area if bright light would be well disguised. Sources are not assigned bonuses or penalties by their nature but by the environment and circumstances in which they are used. Your example above merely said said fire was more obvious than air but there are circumstances in which either could garner a bonus or penalty.

John

That’s the whole concept of it, is it not? Lets take your example and mine. Elemental Bolt Air (yours) and Fire (mine). Using the guideline in the book, which do you think is going to be easier to conceal? One that uses Air as it’s source (something that cannot been seen and felt on a lesser impact) or Fire (be the source coming from a torch, camp fire, the feeling of heat in the, albeit small, vicinity). Even if the difference is +/-1 it will still illustrate how Air would be easier to conceal than Fire would be.

It’s not something written in stone because it doesn’t need to be. This is where GM/Player ingenuity and common sense kick in, where the GM has the final say on what goes down and how. Of which these are applied to both home games and the Living campaign. Be them pre-set or on-the-fly.

Under the right circumstances bonus to “air” and “fire” could be flipped. Say if you were fighting a flesh golem while inside a windmill that was burning down.

I agree that a burst of fire is not concealable in most “ordinary” circumstances – Hey look out, Fireball! But if the object is to cast the spell without it being obvious that YOU cast it, then the elemental choice should be irrelevant.

I don’t disagree with this. What I am saying is that every day (different) situations can, and will, affect rolls. You could have 15 ranks in stealth, but if you try to Hide in bright day light, while out in the middle of a flat plain, being merely several feet amongst enemies actively looking for you, while wearing heavy clanky armor, you’re going to have a harder time than doing it under more favorable conditions. Granted, you’re going to have a less difficult time than say someone with 3 ranks in Stealth, but the penalties will be there regardless. The same is going to go for casting a Fireball vs. an Airball. Fireball is more obvious, and those with higher ranks in stealth will have an easier time to handle the penalty that will might be applied, but the penalties will be there.

Certain spells, from certain sources, under certain circumstances will be easier/harder to cast subtlety than other spells. It’s a question of what, when, and how. Just because it’s not pressed in ink on paper doesn’t mean it should or should not occur.

Ultimately, where there are no mechanics to support it, common sense must prevail. We cannot put in mechanics for every single occurrence or situation.

Personally, my take is this: Successfully casting subtly means that no one ties the effect of the spell to you. This is highly useful in situations where the enemies are under orders to kill or have a particular disdain for casters. If you can disguise the fact that you are a caster from a known Harvester or a Ymandragoran thrall, for example, you are less likely to encounter trouble in the future.

Of course, you could solve that problem by actively killing everyone you come across… but that will have its own repercussions.