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- February 18, 2018 at 5:47 pm #152782AnonymousInactive
I saw a post from 2016 that talked about team attack with three individuals stacking damage to determine massive damage… I believe the example listed as attack 1 inflicts 10, attacker 2 inflicts 8, and attacker 3 inflicts 12 or something along those lines.
We came across a situation similar where attacker two had exploding dice and inflicted 24 points of damage which by itself did massive damage. Which leads to the , if you are doing a team attack do you still stack all three attacks for one massive damage effect when one of the three attackers did massive damage in their attack alone?
At the time I ruled it as “you are attacking as a team, so it is still treated as one attack to inflict massive damage.” The benefit being that the target has a more challenging target number on their vigor test.
I am also presuming in the above situation that attacker three, seeing that massive damage would be inflicted by the first two attackers could opt out of the team attack and attempt a solo attack.
Thanks,
BarryFebruary 18, 2018 at 11:43 pm #276007AnonymousInactiveThe post is probably this one: viewtopic.php?p=25261#p25261 which has a very detailed example.
Bringing it back to your question; each attack separately determines the chance of Massive Damage.
vs Fort:20
Attack#1: 10 stamina / no MD
Attack#2: 10+8 stamina / no MD (If using a Firearm with Impact +2 or more, a MD TN18 occurs)
Attack#3: 8+12 stamina / MD roll, TN20If someone manages to ‘single shot’ the Massive Damage Threshold, a successful Team Attack will automatically also do Massive Damage if at least 1 more stamina (after AR) is caused.
As long as the Team Attack damage ‘pool’ is greater than 6 (the +6 Stamina from Devastating Attack or Headshot), a Team Attack is the better option. It gets messier to determine the best choice once you include Impact from firearms, but the Team Attack is still a better choice due to the higher TN# on Massive Damage.
In a recent game, we lost three PCs due to being unable to stack the damage high enough. When we managed to hit Massive Damage (through Headshot, Devastating Attack or Team Attack), the TN was minimal (18 I think for this Super-Z). Thus, it only needed 13+ to avoid a Wound (7+ when hit by a Heavy Revolver with the +6 Impact). Out of maybe 6 Massive Damage rolls, it failed one… and then ate us.
This brought home a player problem; firearms are good at creating Massive Damage rolls, but the TN isn’t high enough on its own to reliably Wound Super-Zs.
February 19, 2018 at 6:27 am #276010AnonymousInactiveAnother meaningful consideration when choosing between Team Attack and Devastating Attack/ Headshot is how good a shot your Hero is, since Devastating Attack and Headshot are both at -6 to hit, whereas a Team Attack can be an attack with no to-hit penalty.
I like the notion of subsequent Heroes having the option of using Team Attack to increase the TN of the Vigor roll even after the Massive Damage threshold has been reached. I imagine there’s some table etiquette that should apply so that you don’t get something like:
1. Hero A has two exploding dice and does 24 damage, triggering Massive Damage.
2. Super-Z rolls vigor and says, “Made it. No wound.”
3. Hero B says “Hang on. What if I Team Attack and add my damage to his?”
4. …Dealing with that should be easy, though.
To the OP’s point,
a) I like letting Heroes B, C, D, etc use Team Attack to elevate the Vigor roll TN.
b) I do think Heroes B, C, D, etc do have the option of letting the earlier damage resolve and then do solo attacks instead.February 19, 2018 at 11:13 am #276011AnonymousInactiveEach attack is *independently calculated*. You don’t stack all of the attacks together, only the previous successful hit and the current Team Attack.
If the previous hit did 0 stamina (after AR), Team Attack is pointless for the next person (as the ‘previous successful hit’ won’t add anything).
If you have 5 Heroes, the first one does Devastating Attack, the other other four do Team Attack, feeding off the previous hits (in order).
The *optimal* route is for the best shot/biggest hitter to go first, potentially get Massive Damage on their own and give a high base for the next successful hit. If you have a few low-skill Heroes, at least one of them should hit, giving a second Massive Damage roll (with an even higher TN).
5 successful attacks = 5 possible Massive Damage rolls.Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20
Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10)
Team Attack#2; 10 Stamina = TN20 (10+10)
Team Attack#3; 5 Stamina = n/a
Team Attack#4; 18 Stamina = TN23 (5+18)
etcEach attack needs to do as much damage as possible, as 2d10+1d8e, needing only TN-5 to avoid a Wound, isn’t that difficult, especially once Plot Die start getting used by the Super-Z. The more Massive Damage rolls you cause, the more chance they will start failing.
eg. A full-auto heavy machine gun (SH) can easily cause 40+ Stamina in an attack (against low AR targets). It is still only one Massive Damage roll. The next Hero can feed off that (getting an easy second Massive Damage roll using Team Attack). That’s still only 2 potential Wounds against something that may have 5-7 Wounds (and ignores Stamina).
A Hero taking that is Vanquished by Stamina in 1-2 hits. You can guarantee that the Super-Z will take out the HMG user first.If you have 6+ Heroes (or frequent use of Celerity) and the right Clock alignment, you can daisy chain around to the first Hero being able to Team Attack off the last Hero’s attack.
Impact from firearms increases the chance of triggering a Massive Damage roll, but doesn’t add to the TN (making it more likely of success).
February 19, 2018 at 3:52 pm #276013AnonymousInactiveI wonder if the earlier thread mentioned by the OP was this one:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234In that thread, three attacks were clearly being combined via Team Attack into a single attack.
The alternate, “Team Attack only stacks with the immediately previous attack, and not all of them” interpetation is interesting. It would not have occurred to me to use Team Attack that way, and I don’t see anything in the way the rules are written that would mean it can’t work that way.
That said, it makes me uncomfortable in that it seems a little broken. I say “broken” because it basically double-counts each attack such that each Team Attack can ultimately contribute to two Wounds.
In the example given:
Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20 (maybe Wound #1)
Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10) (maybe Wound #2 – thus the earlier Devastating Attack#1 is contributing to both Wound #1 AND Wound #2)
Team Attack#2; 10 Stamina = TN20 (10+10) (maybe Wound #3 – thus the earlier Team Attack#1 is contributing to both Wound #2 AND Wound #3)
…
And so on.Again, I don’t see anything in the way Team Attack is written that would disallow that interpretation. It just makes me uncomfortable to create a system whereby five Heroes can each hit with individual damage that is not enough for a Wound, and yet grind a 4-Wound Super-Z to flinders in less than 5 ticks. Plus, I don’t want to be on the receiving end of it when the EIC decides turnabout is fair play and five abominations Team Attack party members.
Definitely an interesting idea. I’m just personally afraid to run with it.
February 19, 2018 at 11:27 pm #276017AnonymousInactiveThe original post is from their second EiC (Billy) of a Fandible Actual Play podcast that is quite a while ago now and listening to the context is helpful. They were learning the rules and had a lot of issues working this stuff out on the fly (there was 5 mins or so of dialogue the first time they tried to work it out fighting the Super-Z, Glory Hog). Their first EiC (Jesus) made an interpretation on the fly and they stuck with it as a group for a while (consistency is more important than correct interpretations).
See the separate EiC discussion of the same game: viewtopic.php?p=25261#p25261Massive Damage is only determined once per attack. You either make it or you don’t. You can’t cause more than 1 Wound per attack without also causing a Critical Hit.
And yes, two hits contributing to a single Massive Damage roll is what Team Attack is specifically there for. Grab 4 Hero sheets and try it out solo vs Flaming Fist and then against Titan; you’ll see just how much the Heroes *need* to be doing this. Once they understand, they will also take care to avoid allowing Super-Zs to do it back to them.
Look at Titan’s stats. A solo Hero is not going to get Massive Damage on their own without a lot of luck. Between his AR10, Fortitude 26 and Invulnerability/Physical 9 (giving +5 to MD threshold), a firearm or melee attack needs to do 41 Stamina in a single hit (less Impact from firearms, burst fire or full auto isn’t going to help a lot here due to the AR10; except with SuperHeavy ammo). A Might 16 Hero can hit him over the head with a Subway Car for 10d8 (Mi); nothing less is going to even slow him down 1v1. On the plus side, once you *do* manage to hit the threshold, a Wound is likely but not guaranteed due to the high TN.
Alternately, targeting him with Energy Attacks is easier (AR5, Fortitude 26) but still needs 31 Stamina damage to get there. The average Delta will do maybe 15 Stamina in a single attack, Energy Blast 7, Quickness d10 (d10, d10e). Hitting them with multi-ton objects works better.As an EiC, you won’t get to use Team Attack a lot; deadheads aren’t smart enough (and usually just Mob up for the bonuses). A Super-Z may Team Attack off the back of the deadheads damage, which is not particularly dangerous if there is only one. A wolf-pack may present a problem, but by definition the members of a wolf-pack are individually weak and can be picked off by the Heroes.
Whatever your local interpretation, tell the Heroes at the start of the game so they can include it in their tactics.
February 20, 2018 at 1:47 am #276019AnonymousInactiveI totally agree that Team Attack is an essential tool for Heroes to be able to cope with larger threats like Titan and the like.
The original poster (OP) mentioned a post he’d seen earlier. Specifically, “I saw a post from 2016 that talked about team attack with three individuals stacking damage to determine massive damage… I believe the example listed as attack 1 inflicts 10, attacker 2 inflicts 8, and attacker 3 inflicts 12 or something along those lines.”
I think the post he’s talking about is likely the one I linked earlier (viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234) since the date and numbers match the ones he cited.
I think the question under discussion, though, is how exactly Team Attack is supposed to work mechanics-wise.
Massive Damage is normally only determined once per attack. With Team Attack, I think Massive Damage is actually supposed to be determined LESS than once per attack (like, once for two attacks, or three attacks, or however many attacks went into the “Team” pile of damage).
My concern about double-counting works like this. From the ongoing example:
1. Devastating Attack#1; 20 Stamina = TN20
Saying “TN20” implies that these 20 damage exceeded the target’s Fortitude and are therefore used to make a Massive Damage roll with a Target Number (TN) of 20. If this roll happens, then these 20 damage have now been applied to one Massive Damage roll.
2. Team Attack#1; 10 Stamina = TN30 (20+10)
Saying “TN30 (20+10)” implies that the 10 damage from this Hero’s attack is being added to the 20 from the previous attacker to exceed the target’s Fortitude and trigger a Massive Damage roll with TN 30. If the previous roll happened, though, AND this roll also happens, then the 20 points of damage from the Devastating Attack made earlier have now been counted TWICE, because those same 20 points of damage have been applied against the target’s Fortitude two separate times.
That’s the part I’m uncomfortable with.
For myself, I think the mechanic presented in the thread I linked above is what was intended – two or more Heroes add their damage together and then make a single Massive Damage (i.e. Vigor) roll once they’re done Team Attacking.
The main question I have is: What kinds of attacks can be Team Attacks? Everything? Basic Attacks only? Headshots? Devastating Attacks? What are the restrictions? Are there any?
February 20, 2018 at 2:10 am #276020AnonymousInactiveTeam Attack is a Combat Manoeuvre on its own, so technically cannot be combined with anything else as written.
Try it from the opposite direction. Attack#1 hits and ‘chooses’ to defer the Massive Damage check. The other Heroes all miss their Team Attacks; how/when do you resolve it?
Add your ally’s damage to your own for the sole purpose of determining if your attack dealt Massive Damage
Team attack itself is fairly clear. The problem is actually the wording of the Massive Damage rule.
…must attempt a Vigor Action Roll against the damage suffered (after Armor Rating);You can treat the previous damage the same as Impact and only use it to determine if a Massive Damage roll is required and the TN is the Stamina inflicted in *that* attack.
The problem becomes that Team Attack is fairly useless doing this, as the TN required will be so low as to need a fumbled Vigor roll from the target. Remember, avoiding the Wound only needs TN-4.We’ve been playing it as I posted earlier; and still struggle to get Wounds onto the target (by the time we encounter a Super-Z, the EiC often has quite a few Plot Points piled up to spend on Vigor rolls). The Super-Z often only has AR 5, Fort 18 and d8 Vigor! The most generous interpretation is far from an ‘I win’ button for the Heroes.
February 20, 2018 at 4:48 am #276026AnonymousInactiveI hear ya. A lot of the little details aren’t available, but seem important.
Can a Hero Team Attack with a Headshot? Burst? Any firearms? It’s not clear. As observed, Team Attack is a Combat Maneuver of its own and therefore can’t be combined with others, but it includes an attack within itself and the parameters around that attack are unclear. Maybe it doesn’t matter. I’d feel a little weird trying to use a Guarded Attack as my Team Attack or some such, though.
When to resolve the damage? Good question. Also unclear. My intuition has been doing it when new Team Attack damage stops landing in the pile, but that’s not written anywhere.
The way I’ve been conceptualizing it is really like a group attack. Hero A does a bit of damage, and Hero B does a bit of damage, and Hero C, D, Etc do damage, and because it’s simultaneous enough and done with the intention of being coordinated, it hits the target like one big whack the villain feels instead of multiple small hits that can be ignored.
Like when Iron Man, Vision and Thor melt Ultron: https://youtu.be/0jpNYG5AoAI?t=150
The plot dice problem sounds like a real one. In that sense, it might actually be better if more than two Heroes can combine for a Team Attack, because it might boost the TN beyond something that’s easily overcome by plot dice.
Anyway, the discussion is useful.
February 20, 2018 at 5:03 am #276028AnonymousInactiveMelting Ultron is probably a better indicator of doing a lot of Wounds in a short time.
Guarded Attack is not a Combat Manoeuvre, so that is fine (but you’re unlikely to hit anything). One of the local players does it frequently in Arcanis (same Action system).
February 20, 2018 at 5:20 am #276029AnonymousInactiveI mean, like I said, there’s nothing in the rulebook that says the many-wounds-in-a-short-time interpretation is improper. It just strikes me as broken.
Strictly speaking, you could actually do it exactly like before, except allow more damage to stack than just two people. This because when a Hero uses Team Attack, he adds the ally’s damage to his own for Massive Damage purposes.
So it could be like:
1. Hero 1 does Dev.Attack, hit for 20. Resolve damage. Roll Vigor, TN 20.
2. Hero 2 does Team Attack. Hit for 10. Add Ally’s (Hero 1’s) 20 for total of 30. Roll Vigor, TN 30.
3. Hero 3 does Team Attack. Hit for 10. Add Ally’s (Hero 2’s) 30 for total of 40. Roll Vigor, TN 40.
4. And so on.Since each Team Attack adds the Ally’s total to his own, the next Team Attack might take the current Hero’s aggregate total to add to his own, making for larger TNs and addressing the Plot Dice problem.
That still feels like too much to me, but hey, the book doesn’t say it can’t happen.
As for Guarded Attack, it’s listed with the Combat Maneuvers, so I’m pretty sure it is one. I actually like it quite a bit. I’m also pretty sure I shouldn’t be allowed to make Guarded Devastating Attacks and the like. If making Guarded Attacks as Team Attacks is legal, I’ll totally do it.
February 20, 2018 at 6:16 am #276030AnonymousInactiveNo. You only get to add the damage from one ally (“an ally’s”, singular, not “an allies” or “all allies”, plural), not all of them (Stacking rules). Each Hero is only doing one set of Stamina damage for whatever attack type they have made.
As a *very* generous interpretation, you could allow the Hero to choose *which* ally’s damage they use (as long as they are still on the same tick or next tick).
My bad on Guarded; in Arcanis it is a modifier, not a manoeuvre on its own. Losing the Attribute die on an attack is still bad against anything with a decent Avoidance.
February 20, 2018 at 6:34 am #276031AnonymousInactiveI wonder if the earlier thread mentioned by the OP was this one:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2234In that thread, three attacks were clearly being combined via Team Attack into a single attack.
Yes that was the original reference.
After a lengthy discussion (and one of the players interpretation) we executed as SouthernSkies referenced where each single attack chained on the previous one as a stand-alone attack.
… five Heroes can each hit with individual damage that is not enough for a Wound, and yet grind a 4-Wound Super-Z to flinders in less than 5 ticks.
This is similar to what happened. By chaining 4 players whittled down the Z by 3 wounds in 8 ticks (went back and walked through the roll20 logs). Two of the damage rolls were maxed out and the Z had two very bad rolls on vigor tests. The rolls were so bad (over 10 points below the stacked damage) it didnt make sense to use the Plot Dice.
With this said, given SouthernSkies experience with the chaining was this a fluke? Its a given part of the quick take down is my lack of experience in running this system.
Also, is it normal for combat rounds to flow so quickly; I played Exalted for two years and while a single attack took 30 minutes to run through the 10 steps and assorted sub-steps, combat was typically over in 12 to 24 ticks.
By the way, great discussion above. Gave me lots to mull over.
February 20, 2018 at 7:20 am #276032AnonymousInactiveI think they designed the game to try and keep combat moving along. I don’t know Exalted, but I’ve played games that you almost need a laptop to play. This is certainly faster, and I think it’s on purpose.
Glad you guys found a Team Attack interpretation that works for your game. Without official guidance, we can’t really know the “right” interpretation, so finding something that works is what matters.
Being able to take down super-Zs really fast will definitely be nice for the players. It’ll be ugly if they’re on the receiving end of the same mechanic. And I suppose it’ll be rough on the EIC if his main villains can go from healthy to destroyed in the time between their own actions.
I can’t speak to whether it’s a fluke. It’s probably very dependent on the strength of the Super-Z. In the system you’re using (where the max Team size is 2 Heroes), targets where two Heroes worth of damage is regularly enough to do Massive Damage can be ground down pretty fast, and targets where three or more Heroes worth of damage are necessary may well be nigh impossible to take down.
For example, Southernskies cited Titan’s stats in an earlier post. Two Heroes Team Attacking may well be inadequate to breach that guy’s defenses. If the Team Attack system doesn’t allow a thrid or fourth or whatever Hero to add damage to the mix, then targets like that will be really hard to take down even though weaker targets go down in just a handful of ticks. It’ll be up to the EIC to keep his villains in the sweet spot where they’re tough enough to be challenging but easy enough to be beatable. How wide or narrow that range is will be sensitive to how many Heroes are allowed to contribute damage toward a single Vigor roll.
February 20, 2018 at 12:16 pm #276033AnonymousInactiveIn both ARG and Rotted Capes, most combats are over in 24 ticks. Anything that goes longer is either lots of foes, very high defenses or *really* bad die rolls. The system is designed to keep players paying attention; not “I’ve rolled, now I’m going for pizza” disengagement. Dynamic responses to the flow of combat determine overall success.
3 wounds in 8 ticks is a very good run of luck for the Heroes. The combination of maxed damage (it never truly ‘maxes’ due to exploding Attribute) and very poor Vigor rolls is unusual, more work is usually required.
But that is *exactly* what teamwork and Team Attack is there for. 4 players working together can take down tough opponents… if they can break average at the right time. If you ran the combat again, I would bet the fight would be a lot tougher.The next big question is: can your team deal with a large Mob of deadheads? Different tactics, since Common foes are automatically killed without a Vigor roll.
Our table has had some very shocking runs of both Action Rolls and damage in the past (14 ticks of combat; not a single Action Roll above 10… on 2d10+1d10e…). It is significant when the table can hit *average*.
The last game I ran (ARG system, similar combat rules), they broke that average and slaughtered the ‘boss fight’ in 15 ticks. It had every advantage; high Avoidance, high AR, precast spells, the works. It just happened to be the night everything worked for the players (opening Crit with a shortsword, two more Wounds from high damage rolls).
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