Exceptional Ranged Weapons

Hat,

Thank you for the quick reply.

“Question: In what order do I apply weapon Speed modifiers?
Answer: When applying changes to a weapon’s Speed due to properties, maneuvers, etc, all reductions are applied first. The Speed still may not fall below 3; further reductions do not apply. Then all increases are applied.”
– I understand the order that is presented here, though it appears somewhat of a non sequitur since the weapon speeds of ranged weapons are already below 3. However, I do agree with your interpretation that the rules, as written, do not appear to grant any specific benefit (with the exception of the Flintlocks, as stated, which is marginal at best, since if you’re rolling a ranged character you really don’t want to be in melee to begin with).

IMHO, the combat mechanics tend to be quite caster- and melee-centric, while ranged weapons take mostly a back seat, and this is a case in point were I find this is true.

My fiancee plays a ranged combat specialist (bow(wo)man), and in general finds that there is definitely a niche for them. That said, from my own personal observations you really cannot have more than a single ranged combat specialist in a party, because if you don’t have the melee people to hold enemies back, they’ll just roll up on you. Bows are fundamentally slow weapons and cannot put out enough damage fast enough to keep the hoards at bay.

My fiancee plays a ranged combat specialist (bow(wo)man), and in general finds that there is definitely a niche for them. That said, from my own personal observations you really cannot have more than a single ranged combat specialist in a party, because if you don’t have the melee people to hold enemies back, they’ll just roll up on you. Bows are fundamentally slow weapons and cannot put out enough damage fast enough to keep the hoards at bay.
-You are making exactly my point. I could take an exceptional Gladius for speed 4, rune it down to speed 3, and deliver more damage/tick than any ranged weapon available, with the added benefit of not having to buy ammo. Plus I would benefit from a much wide range of available martial techniques and combat talents that pump my damage/tick even higher.

Under the current mechanics, I really see the benefit of ranged weapons as either being an alternative for casters to burn strain for a few ticks, or for a melee specialist to fire once to start combat and then drop it to go to his primary melee weapon [Quick Draw likely included]. But if I’m trying to play a true ranged character, I just can’t find the math to show me how I’m going to be as effective as melee characters.

My fiancee plays a ranged combat specialist (bow(wo)man), and in general finds that there is definitely a niche for them. That said, from my own personal observations you really cannot have more than a single ranged combat specialist in a party, because if you don’t have the melee people to hold enemies back, they’ll just roll up on you. Bows are fundamentally slow weapons and cannot put out enough damage fast enough to keep the hoards at bay.
-You are making exactly my point. I could take an exceptional Gladius for speed 4, rune it down to speed 3, and deliver more damage/tick than any ranged weapon available, with the added benefit of not having to buy ammo. Plus I would benefit from a much wide range of available martial techniques and combat talents that pump my damage/tick even higher.

Under the current mechanics, I really see the benefit of ranged weapons as either being an alternative for casters to burn strain for a few ticks, or for a melee specialist to fire once to start combat and then drop it to go to his primary melee weapon [Quick Draw likely included]. But if I’m trying to play a true ranged character, I just can’t find the math to show me how I’m going to be as effective as melee characters.

Your base damage with a heavy crossbow or flintlock rifle is obnoxious compared to every other weapon in the game for it’s initial speed. Assume quickness of 7 so d10, for speed 2 the heavy crossbow does 2d10 (1d10) damage plus any bonuses for quality, runes, etc. Average damage is 16.5 base or 8.25 per tick. A gladius is d8 base, so d8 (d10) or 10 points over 5 ticks. 2 points of damage per tick with nothing else added in. Even that assumes that the melee combatant had to go nowhere to get there. There’s also a decent chance that the heavy crossbow outright wounded the target especially as you start adding in fine quality, a damage rune and get a bit lucky with the roll.

I will agree with Cody people focused on crossbows will have a harder time as they can’t melee with it and including reload time they aren’t as fast as a bowman. However, if you think crossbows are useless, talk to anyone who was at the Origins BI in 2014. They wounded like no one’s business.

In terms of damage per tick, there are two items I’m curious if you factored into your equation.

1. Opponent’s AR – small weapons may hit faster, but AR erodes their impact against larger slower weapons
2. Ticks spent by melee types in moving

Movement for melees adds up. If you wait for the enemy to come to you you’re wasting ticks. If you close on them, the time to close effectively adds to the weapon speed. Unlike the original rules where Quick decreased all movement by 1 making a 5′ incidental free, incidental movement now adds a minimum of 1 tick.

There’s a base martial technique in Codex of Heroes that for +0 speed and 0 recovery decreases the reload time for bows by 2 to 0, a la free. The Draw on the Move talent allows you to reload a bow as a free action as part of a cautious advance. With the Quick talent this means move anywhere up to your full pace and reload your bow for speed 3. The Quickshot talent allows you to reload a bow as a trivial (speed 1) action that can be combined with shooting. An exceptional bow and that talent means that you have base weapon speed and can fire with no concerns for reload.

At Tier I you get Point Blank Shot for free on every shot within 30′ bypassing 2 points of AR. As most things have AR that’s effectively 2 die bumps from base average damage. Precise Aim is a Speed 2 Maneuver with recovery 0. Again, you can use that all day long if you want. In that case, because it’s a maneuver, the Exceptional Celerity rune does apply.

There are additional options for boosting damage and perfectly good maneuvers and combinations that can make a bowman very deadly.

Flintlocks as the PCI team clarified switching to the A:RPG were intended as they originally were used – a single deadly opening volley and then melee. Crossbows could certainly work like that or function as a slow spike damage option.

I would also point out that if you’re standing in the back you probably aren’t getting wailed on like the melee types are either which is a benefit as well.

All weapons have trade offs. The goal is to find a groove that works for you using one or more weapons and have fun.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Also, ranged should not match melee damage per tick as there is no risk. If the opponents can’t get past your friends, you are just doing free damage with no risk.

The simplest way to do sustained damage per tick with a flintlock is to have multiple and don’t reload them except between combats. This obviously has a significant up-front cost (though an Altherian Val could start with 2 pistols free and buy more for not too ridiculous a price).

I’ve thought about creating a marksman/triggermage but I prefer the melee play-style.

Actually, you can’t “rune it down” to 3 Ticks. Please read the text of the Celerity Rune:

Celerity
Description: This Rune allows you to move or attack
with incredible speed.
Wand: No effect.
Weapon: When a weapon with this Rune is used to
perform a Combat Maneuver you reduce the Recovery,
Speed or both (to a minimum of 3 Speed and 1 Recovery).
Note: If the weapon’s speed would drop below 3 add +1
damage instead

Please note it says COMBAT MANEUVER.

Combat Maneuvers (which consist of Weapon Tricks or Martial Maneuvers)

This means that you can only ever get your Gladius to Speed 3 by using a combat maneuver which has a speed of +0 (X), or with the Rapid Strike Weapon Trick.

You are correct that Guns and Crossbows cannot fire any faster than 2 ticks in the current rules set, but Exceptional provides additional Rune Slots compared to Fine or Good Quality which is nothing to sneeze at. In terms of Bows, Exceptional bows are no less powerful than any other weapon in terms of speed vs. damage. They do have a 2 tick reload, but there are Talents and Martial Techniques which ameliorate that rather short reload.
-Ah, that was not clear to me at first read, that the speed referred to the speed of the maneuver and not the weapon speed. In any case, the distinction is partially moot as most melee attacks will be using some kind of maneuver unless they are in recovery, so the benefit of speed reduction still applies, although the math changes depending on the maneuver.

Re: Hat,

As far as damage/tick is concerned, your math is correct as of tick 1. If considering an average of 12 ticks, my math is correct:

d8+1 damage die x three attacks = 3x(4.5+1) = 16.5 average damage over 12 ticks

The only ranged weapon that comes close is the light crossbow, which gets to fire again on tick 11:

2d6+1 damage die x two attacks = 2(2×3.5)+2 = 16 average damage over 12 ticks

1. AR factor is a valid point, but not knowing your opponent, it is difficult to factor in. I would also offer that if you are going to burn bolts or blast powder shooting at an opponent, it’s most likely going to be >=Elite level, and likely better armored and with higher avoidance, than the melee guys who have to wade through the minions and/or commons first.

2. Movement is also a very valid point. But again, assuming in a typical fight the melee folks have to soak up the minions/commons first, as often as not those guys are coming to you instead of you going to them. Particularly the minion packs who charge you to get in their extra damage before they wipe.

The benefits of bows you list are valid. But without context of all the benefits of various melee weapons, the argument is somewhat lopsided. For example, if I add wolf pack tactics and advanced tactics to my basic melee, my base damage goes up significantly, for a conditional modifier that is pretty easy to meet in typical combat scenarios.

I haven’t done the addition, but certainly you must agree that more than the majority of available weapon tricks and martial techniques are for melee weapons, and some of the ones that apply to ranged weapons are also available for melee weapons as well, allowing your typical melee fighter greater flexibility in character design and combat options.

One non-tangible benefit not mentioned yet is that the greater numbers of die rolls you throw, the more likely you are to produce results close to the mean over time. While on the other hand, if you’re throwing fewer die rolls over the same amount of time, your results are going to be more affected by any outlying results.

The other non-tangible factor not being considered here is that the faster I attack, the more quickly I can make my next decision/respond to the changing battlefield.