Extraplanar Beings

Cody,

Wow, for not being well versed this had a lot of new information for me! I know that actual travel is difficult between worlds, but half that battle seems to be making sure you know where you are going. Summoning seems to be pretty easy, relatively speaking. I’m not sure how important the cosmology is to the actual discussion. The main idea is, why is most everything people summon evil?

I’ve never heard of the council of Ash. It makes sense that Sarish might have dominion on an infernal plane, and that he might do something to make contact with it easier. But I always thought the infernals came from a multitude of planes, thus there being an essentially infinite amount of them to use in the war, whereas one might think that one other plane might be depopulated by the demands of the war, and yet there does not appear to be any dearth in infernals. I haven’t heard of the world of the legions of mnai either. Does knowledge of these locations come from a current campaign module, I assume?

Shadow Plane and Ethereal Plane are explained in the previous cosmology, and are not actually entirely separate planes – they are mirrors or shadows of our own, essentially. I don’t know if we’ve seen the ethereal in the new campaign. I know that Cadic is reported to have killed the King of Shadow – possibly one of the deities from the pantheon that the PoM wiped out by time travel. Though I’ve always wondered if he could be that deity as well…

I don’t believe the plane of Neroth that was visited in the last campaign where the fallen god was found was a pocket dimension. I believe it was just access to a specific location in the same plane of death where the Judgement of Nier sits and other modules took the PCs. I’ve always thought it interesting that the PoM spared and imprisoned the head deity of an opposing pantheon. I seriously doubt they did that just so he could challenge some silly adventurers a millennia or so later. I think it would be interesting to see him again…

I don’t think the “Death Angels” were necessarily celestials. It was my understanding that they were some form of undead. Classification of new stuff seen at BIs is always so questionable. Even if they are celestial, they are from a very different realm than we know anything about!

The average person knows very little of the planes beyond the world of arcanis except perhaps that they’re “full of monsters.” Scholars who have read the works of the sage Nerius the Elder know the universe consists of “layers” like an onion (or in the real world, those of us who have read the 3.5 Magic of Arcanis book…). But its not like a lot of people are out there testing what Nerius postulated. IC and OOC the “other worlds” remain obscure.

In theory at the very center of the universe is a molten layer of “chaos” that was tapped by “the Creator” (possibly Kassegore) to make the rest of the universe. Its surrounded by a second layer of almost pure (essentially uninhabitable) elemental planes. A third layer is described as elementally infused realms. Its possible the Kio migrated to Arcanis from one of these worlds. The Fourth layer is a mortal plane (ie. the place where Arcanis floats). The Fifth layer is full of celestial/infernal worlds. Each individual world on this plane seems to have a fixed moral outlook (either celestial or infernal). The “Paradise of the Gods” is probably on this layer. The Celestial Giants may originate from this layer. A sixth layer is a tattered place with a scattering of worlds and ancient godlike horrors. Tzihet and company probably call this layer home. Finally a 7th “non-layer exists that is home to “Oblivion” or “Entropy.”

Each layers has more (or less) “bubbles” embedded in the layers. These are individual worlds.

It should be said that while the Nerius model seems to be broadly in agreement with what we saw in the Sorcerous Pacts PDF. But it is not necessarily on all fours with the Ehtzara’s secret history from Children of the Lesser Gods PDF.

Layers like the ethereal and the plane of shadow that were part of the D&D superstructure may no longer exists…or have been shifted to reflect the Arcanis Cosmology. For example the Plane of Shadow could conceivably be either another world of the Mortal Plane or perhaps on the 5th layer…or something unique and different.

Its worth cycling back a moment to the Paradise of the Gods. Generally each god maintains their own Paradise (ie world…again probably on the 5th layer of the Onion). Beltine and Neroth are an exception and jointly maintain their realm which is collectively known as the Underworld with prominent features like … the Cauldron.

Its also worth circling back to Sarish. Sarish does not directly rule over the myriad infernal worlds, though he does have a titanic collection of infernal servants. Sarish is more like a fisherman (or industrial scale kidnapper) who treats the infernal realms as a “labor pool” of future slaves. Go in with a big net. Scoop up the next cohort. Bind them. Send them to the front lines.

Sooo much to unpack and guess at …

…snip…Though I do feel the need to mention that is a theory presented in the book as presented by Nerius. So for all we know, Nerius could be totally wrong. …snip…

Yes. Take all that with a grain of salt.

I didn’t realize that each god has their own Paradise. Is that stated somewhere? I’ve often wondered about the entire idea of a paradise and judgement of Gods that have no alignment. What do they reward?

It is not specifically stated that each God has their own world except that the Underworld is controlled jointly by Beltine & Neroth which is pretty clearly separate. The Underworld consists of the Torments of Neroth (think of Greek Tartorus) for the souls that *really* screw up, the Cauldron…and other areas we don’t know as well. BUT it is stated that each of the Gods have their own idea of what Paradise is and that they are different from each other. Its mentioned that Altheres has his Great Library (probably among other locations) while Nier’s paradise is currently undefined, but in mind is a lot like Valhalla but with more fire. It is my assumption (possibly wrong) that they exists as different but linked worlds (perhaps with a “central” Empyrean Court).

As for what “They” reward…this is something I’ve wrestled with for the better part of a decade. As players and characters we don’t know. I think different authors have put somewhat different spins on this. I’m not sure even Henry has it 100% worked out…and if he has, he hasn’t shared. I *GUESS* that the gods have “A PLAN” and that the plan is essentially the craziest Rube Goldberg machine you’ve ever imagined to either (a) ensure the conditions exist in the future where they are born/created (so they can travel back in time and kick everything off) AND/OR (b) generate conditions that allow survival against the Silence. … If so then I believe people get judged over how their lives impact the “Plan.” But our glimpse of the Torments of Neroth suggest that cowardice is heavily punished which may imply some wider system of judgement on “Virtues.” Of course the Gods do not appear to agree on what qualifies as an important virtue…

I would also note that its perfectly opaque to me on the issue of how many souls get to paradise vs how many go to the Cauldron. It seems like most souls should be recycled in the Cauldron … but there have been interactions with some NPCs that suggest most people who live decent lives go to the Paradise of the Gods. How this works isn’t clear to me. Nor is it clear how most people, who don’t have a particular patron God, would know where to end up if they did get to a Paradise. For example: If I live a good life and I pray to Yaris for safe sea travel and Saluwe for Bounty and Hurrian for Protection … which of their Paradises do I end up in?

So most adventurer’s that reached any real level would probably gain “paradise” whereas no matter how “good” a cobbler you might be, you’re screwed, since that probably isn’t very useful in the war for existence.

No, I really doubt this. The plan is something that runs through Centuries and Aeons and is not something simple enough to hold in a mortal mind. Was the primary purpose of your life to help inspire the guy (or gal) who would have a nagging question that you raised…that would in turn inspire a future philosopher? Maybe you go to Paradise even if you kill three neighbors with an axe. “Waste” your life defending your village from evil things (in the short term) but miss the significant other you were supposed to sire a future hero with? Maybe go to the Cauldron as a failure.

But does Sarish only bind infernals? Why not celestials and other beings from the 5th sphere? Shouldn’t he be an equal opportunity kidnapper, er, I mean recruiter? Shouldn’t there be good (or at least indifferent) planes in the 5th sphere unrelated to the PoM that people could summon? Things not so likely to eat the summoner?

I *believe* Sarish doesn’t grab celestials because there are enough infernals and enslaving them is less ethically troubling. Angels in chains? Sad face. Infernals in chains? No tears shed. There is a (heretical) theory floating around that each Mortal world eventually ends up a celestial or infernal world as one philosophy (good or evil) triumphs. So maybe yes…there should be unaffiliated celestial worlds to tap…though its not clear that the PoM approves of mortals making contact with said worlds. And if the Celestial Giants come from the 5th shell … well they won’t eat you but good luck getting them to do anything “really cool” once they get here.

There is a (heretical) theory floating around that each Mortal world eventually ends up a celestial or infernal world as one philosophy (good or evil) triumphs. So maybe yes…there should be unaffiliated celestial worlds to tap…though its not clear that the PoM approves of mortals making contact with said worlds.

Didn’t realize that was heretical.

I should have said maybe heretical. It’s speculation. Not sure what the Mother Church really thinks of that.

That’s a great question. Its an acknowledged but unspoken truth that NONE of the modern religions centered on the Pantheon of Man (Khitani, Mother Church, DT, MOC…) is all that close to what the Church of the First Imperium actually looked like. So maybe there is a Paradise built on the 1st Imp model. On the other hand we know the Gods once warred on each other too. Even if the mortal worship was consolidated in the face of the Other its not clear to me if the Celestial real estate ever was.

Oh, good point about their divisions in the Mythic age. That would argue for separate planes. I still would dearly love to learn more about the mythic age.

Also made me wonder about Anshar and Ssethric afterlife. Since Kassegore devours and reprocesses all their souls (very similar to the cauldron) there doesn’t seem to be any outsider/extraplanar connection for the Ssethrics, right? That does make is extra interesting that the Ssethric usurper god we learned about in this years BI had outsider servants, doesn’t it? And since Anshar is a newer addition to the pantheon, and doesn’t have any Valinor of her own, does she now have a paradise? Or do her followers get “reprocessed” like her original followers?

We know that who you worship controls where your soul goes, right? Or at least it can. That’s why losing your chosen to other gods is so bad. When the Varn convinced Ssethrics to start worshipping them, they started getting the souls, rather than them returning to Kassegor. Heck, we even know of one case of an Elorii Spirit making it into the human paradise. So there is some compatibility/exchangeability between races. Now we need a human suicidal enough to try to enter the Elorii recycling system. I guess it would be interesting to know, do we have any idea what happens to a human’s soul that worships Belisarda? Does she have a tiny afterlife set up for them, since as far as we know they don’t join the Elorii system?

Just a reminder to the discussion, it IS entirely possible to trap souls before they go to the Cauldron/Ouromar/Kassagore’s Fiery Maw and spirit anus. It was found in the adventure in the 3.5 campaign where a group identified as being aligned with The Silence had their own Ouromar which short-circuited the Elorii reincarnation cycle so the souls of the Berokene inhabitants of Raven’Tindal were not reborn elsewhere among the Elorii, or other (non-Berokenes) were born in that community. There was also a plot point which I don’t think ever panned out anywhere about if a Hero were to die in that adventure and ‘raised’ by the ‘priests’ by the same ‘Ouromar’ which apparently did something to that Hero’s soul.

It is also possible to purposely block out access to a. . . soulspring, if you will, as is seen when Illiir commanded Beltine not to allow any Dwarf/Celestial Giant souls into her Cauldron as part of the curse on them. Hell, the whole case with the Dwarves brings the whole economy of souls to a new question with the knowledge that the Dwarves of Arcanis only represent a portion of the total population, and that there are still some/most of their population who continue to live un-cursed and presumably un-restricted to the afterlife. It is suggested both on these forums and in canon that this is because the other Celestial Giants are ‘beyond Illiir’s reach’, which is why when one of them came to Arcanis she turned into a Dwarf, but that means that those other Giants are also (presumably) beyond BELTINE’S reach as well, which means that somehow Beltine (in denying the Dwarves access to the Cauldron) acquired the right to their souls to deny them their passage in the first place. This means either the Celestial Giants of Arcanis were somehow swayed away from their original afterlife/soul-cycle towards the Pantheon (and Beltine in particular), or that Beltine somehow has the ability to ‘intercept’ souls and divert them to her Cauldron. Did the Pengik (said to preexist the coming of the Mandai to Onara) have their souls get munched on by Kassagore before the PoM came, and now their souls are taken by Beltine? How about the (other?) Savosh like the (presumed) Myrantians and Ossarians? What about the Ss’ressen? Hell, what about the Elorii?!

In terms of extra planar beings, my one huge problem with the above debates is that they rely and Dungeons and Dragons Logic, using cosmologies from books written when the universe of Arcanis had to (by design or by necessity) be crowbarred into that system and multiverse. We have already seen how in the present form of the game a lot of the ‘needed’ aspects of D&D have been tossed aside and worked into new forms (ie: the Gar representing the ‘goblinoid’ and warg races, the disappearance of Minotars in their traditional form, the different backstory of Naga being corrupted Ssanu instead of their own independent race, etc), so why would we hold to the same models of the universe? Why do Celestials have to be the anti-Infernals–alignment-fixed beings of not particular loyalty to a deity–and why can they not be something else?

My view of them remains that celestial creatures are almost a construct form, created by the Gods in question by splitting off a portion of their essence/personality/etc and encasing them in a physical form. This could be why all the Valinor are the “X of Y” in name, as while they may have their own consciousness and to us narrow-minded mortals seem like complex but unique individuals, their dominant personality seems reflective of their divine title. The Pride of Illiir ended up suffering hubris, the Judgement of Nier seems almost incorruptable, etc. If the Valinor were entirely autonomous beings who were simply ‘recruited’ by the Gods, it brings up the question as to where they came from, why the Gods have them, why only some gods have them, etc. Hell, it even fits fairly well into my ‘head-canon’ for the behaviour of the Valinor: They seem to fight among themselves, and they seem to have some particularly self-centred ideals, but in every case that I have seen of them in canon they always seem to be acting in what they believe is the best interest of their God. Manetas forced himself on the Imperium because he felt that humanity needed a firmer guiding hands. . . by Illiir’s Will. The Sleeping Emperor removed the Khitani from the fall of the rest of the Imperium. . . by Larissa’s Will. The Hatred of Neroth liked killing things (likely) because it viewed its roll as bringing about the death and pain that is Neroth’s due. This is (likely) why so many of the Valinor swayed from their paths by Sarish during the God’s War and the Elder Wars chose to become is Demon-Prince minions rather than be cut adrift. They are all a part (or a reflection) of their creator-deity’s unknowably vast essence and mind, alien and vast to us simplistic creatures, but no smarter or complicated than a wristwatch to the Gods who created them.

Moving on to other celestials, perhaps the ability to create these creatures (horcrux style?) is not well known among the other gods? Maybe the reason we haven’t seen Yig/Anshar or Belisarda or Kassagore or the Varn having their own celestial servants is because they simply don’t know how. Aside from Wantir, the only beings we know of who makes extensive use of celestial creatures are the Pantheon of Man, so maybe the knowledge of making celestial constructs was simply not present on Arcanis (or, not well developed) until they came, with Wantir’s Death Angels representing a prototype version of the process? Another idea could be that beings like Kassagore and Yig didn’t make celestial creatures out of their own essence because doing so would dilute their own essence or power, and everything I’ve read about Yig in particularly suggests to me that she wouldn’t want to give up any of her own power for any reason. Hell, we have suggestions that Yarris doesn’t even have ‘true’ Valinor his other ten fellows (still wondering about Althares too, since we haven’t heard any of his Valinor popping up yet either), which could mean that he was also ‘late to the party’ of this knowledge or didn’t want to go through whatever process of acquiring his own Valinor.

Anyway, this is how the systems work within my own head-canon based on what I’ve seen. What I have said is not backed up (except insofar as detailed above) in any published text and could be 100% wrong.

Food for thought.

I confess that I think valinor and their gods are essentially separate beings and are not tiny fragments of a unified divinity. The loss of the Patience of Illiir does not make Illiir impatient. And at least theoretically a valinor like the Word of Illiir should survive on its own if somehow Illiir dies (again). In the case of the Celestials known as Veil Walkers we have the story that they were created from the souls of the most pious followers of Beltine and Neroth. Not sure where Shield Maidens come from or how they were created. Or what other kinds of Celestials are out there.

As for why the PoM has celestial servants while other Deities generally don’t…I think that has to do with where you are on the “Onion.” If you’re immortal and godlike but you originate or mostly live on the Third Layer (elemental lords) then you have elemental servants. If you originate from or live on the 5th layer (and are immortal and godlike) you have celestial (or infernal) servants. Pantheon of Man, looking at you. If you live on 6th layer (Tzizhet, maybe the Varn) you’ve got elder horrors on tap.

If you primarily live on the 4th layer (where Arcanis floats) I don’t really know what you’d get. Primal spirits? Nothing? Everything?

Neither mainstream Belisarda nor Yig nor Kassegore seem to have much in the way of divine servants. Though the mention of the Plant Lords and the 12 True dragon children of Kassegore &Yig are interesting… The Skinless Lady has a boatload of infernals…also interesting.

Last thought, as I think about it, its not clear to me that Kas &Yig predominantly belong to the 4th shell.

Veil Walkers? Source? (not ringing a bell)