lesser Valinor

One of the very great things about Arcanis is that there is a lot of subjective information out there that has to be decoded. So even the old hands often *don’t know* as much as we think we do. As we get new pieces we constantly have to reevaluate. So don’t be daunted. We’re all peeling the onion together. Also the average person on Onara usually has no clue what we talk about here either … So its not unusual to be surprised by something that doesn’t work quite the way you thought it should.
Fair enough. That both pulls me into the lore, and drives me batty. I’m one of those guys who just has to know. If Call of Cthulhu was real, I’d be a jabbering madman inside a day

To follow up on some of the questions about churches this discussion brought up…

1. How did the Church of the fire dragon form, then? Didn’t the original leader have a vision, or something, and decide to start following the fire dragon, and that is what lead to their migration? Does that mean that some divine being came and instructed them in Cants, so their church could have spellcasting powers?

2. What was that being? What is the Valinor equivelants for Kassegor and Yig?

According to the story, it was the Fire Dragon itself who spoke to the Matriarch of the Black Talons, using the story of being a ancient Ssethric deity once worshiped by the Empire of Yahssremore but had fallen out of favour due to evil Kassagore and Yig. We know (OOC) that the Fire Dragon IS Kassagore, which means that the Divine Cants taught to the Black Talons aren’t too dissimilar to those of Kassagore. It is entirely possible that these are straight up Kassagore Cants, but due to the 5650 years between the Naga Coup (and ascendancy of the Varn) and the Black Talon migration, it is safe to assume that few if any were actually around to remember what actual Kassagore (and Yig) Cants are!

As to Ssethric “Valinor”, as far as we are aware there is no such thing. The closest to a Valinor that exists within the known Ssethric pantheon are the draconic offspring of Kassagore and Yig, notably Jeggal Sag. From tradition, it was Kassagore (and presumably Yig too) himself who gave the Ssethrics their cants.

One point to remember is that the whole system of Cants vs. Spells breaks down slightly with the Ssethrics and the Elorii. We simply do not know enough about either compared to the Humans to really get a good ‘feel’ for how their Churches work. For example, we have no evidence that either the Black Talons or Elorii have any opposition to Arcane casting, or that their Cants work any differently. What I assume is that a “Cant” is a boxed-spell that anyone can cast, and the Gods (or other divine being) granted them to mortals as a sure-thing way of manipulating the arcanum. Kassagore and Yig (or very possibly the Dragons) did it for the Ssethrics, the Elemental Lords and Belisarda did it for the Elorii, and the Gods/Valinor did it for the Humans.

I think I read in the Ssethregore book last night that the Matriarchy ruling class knows that The Fire Dragon is an Aspect of Kassegore.

The senior leadership does. A rank and file initiate doesn’t. I think you learn the Truth somewhere around the time you would make Annoited Priestess.

Hello,

In answer to your questions:

1 – I’m not ready to say.

2 – Kassegore and Yig do not have Valinor.

Hope that helps.

However if my memory serves faithfully they do have gigantic, terrifying children…

2. What was that being? What is the Valinor equivelants for Kassegor and Yig?

I asked this about the elemental lords once. There is no equivalent of the Valinor to the other gods. Especially when you consider how they hold emotional aspects or channel divinity. The other gods have their agents and stronger children, but nothing like the Valinor in function or the thought of “celestial” beings or angels. Kassagore and Yig had plenty of dragons and serpentine creatures that may have worked for them or worshiped them, but nothing like you would think about solars working under the command of a God. And I’m sure the elemental lords had elemental followers, but I don’t think they had control over them as a traditional D&D God would over Archons or angels.

Taking this further these modules also state that highly devote clerics of the Issori god could become facets and choose what aspect they represented. The other clerics were not sure how this happened. The Issori claimed that they could worship these facets for limited power the same way that worshiping their God granted but weaker.

I wonder (and leave you to wonder as well) if the Issori facets are the same thing as Valinor.

Perhaps there is something the First City that allows someone to become an Issori facet or human Valinor. Something that both the Ssethrics and Elorii never found.

If we look at Valinor. They are each an aspect of a god. This thread has an incomplete list.
http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=730

Now some material states that the Gods came to Arcanis with their men, and Valinor. But there are no stories of specific Valinor during that time. There are vague mentions of Valinor attacking Belestor. But Valinor aren’t really named until the Dragon’s War. This is after humans took Belestor from the Elorii.
From the old campaign Manetas had worshipers and granted them power. Specifically they counted as a different church for the sake of Smite Infidel. And He could curse those that defiled his Holy places.
Also from the old campaign The Year of Ill Harvest a human extracts an organ from a Valinor, implants it into himself and slowly begins to change into a Valinor (or Valinor-like) as well.
Finally in “the Page” from the Black Book of Ymandragore it documents the Sorcerer King successfully implanting the organ in himself. And I don’t think anyone would argue that the SK is a powerful being.