making things harder

John, view the idea of constatnly running encounters together as poor design and if a GM does it often kinda a dick move.

However the my original idea was to figure out new way to challenge people instead of just piling more of the existing stuff up on people

…snip… my original idea was to figure out new way to challenge people instead of just piling more of the existing stuff up on people

Something I heartily agree with. At least while I’m here reading the forum, rather than pulling my hair out mid mod. I wasn’t even thinking about out of combat consequences, complications & costs but those are every bit as important for mood and atmosphere.

In the zombie/vampire example, why couldn’t you just write it as a single combat in waves? They encounter the first zombies and then more show up every X ticks with the vampire showing up Y ticks after the final wave of zombies. You could use whatever rationale for the delay as seemed appropriate.

You absolutely could. But you couldn’t do it with exploration or mysteries or interaction with NPCs in between. At that point its essentially a grind. Not a slow rise of tension/mood…which could also certainly be cool or great. But it would be different.

The ‘regain everything’ only applies if the group has time to recover (Around 5-10 minutes). Many modules (usually BI’s) extend multiple encounters into 1 Scene, thereby making players ration out their Stamina, Per Scene Abilities, and Fate Chips. This is probably the easiest and best way to do it.

Yes that is true. I would not call it many modules, but I’ve seen it and enjoyed it in BIs. Perhaps it could have use as a prelude to the final fight. I’ll add that trick to my list of wounds and exhaustion. But again, as above, its not a rise of tension over the course of a module.

You also have the option to say to the players after the minion fight ” do you want to rest and get your breath back or push on to the main villain”. If the players rest they get stamina back and reset many counters but at the cost of allowing the main villain to re-inforce (or even to retreat giving a different ending!) or to push on and face an easier scene but one in which they start out partially depleted. The players feel like they have a measure of control then but both end up having consequences.

This is essentially what I was talking about. Not necessarily ‘waves’ but just that you don’t have time to sit on your butt, and spend a lot of time healing, etc.

John

John, I hear you, and yes those are the ways that the core rules allow, but adding on new things, spitballing new ideas is what this thread is all about.

Curses are a great idea, artificially scarce resources are good too, giving the Heroes something far beyond their normal means and letting be proxy powers are all good ideas folks.

way back in 2nd Ed Living City there was a mod that all the heroes took over demon bodies and were forced to battle it all out in a giant arena, it was a lot of fun and it got us out of the normal “these are the resources we have” mindset

Challenge people by forcing them into new situations

underwater combat is a great example of this if the rules are spelled out clearly and consistent, Aerial combat also, Dueling, charioteering, mountain climbing etc etc can all force people out of that “these are the resources we have” mindset

Scott at the same time as a judge I believe you should drop some hints that a short rest might be a BAD idea, lots of in game ways to do that, like that chanting getting louder as the sacrifice is about to happen etc.

I think part of the reason we don’t do that is we as a group complain about that when its not obvious. I think it also sets up a situation of the players VS the judge and that is bad (IMO). but that is a play style argument more than anything.

I think those are both the same question, it just takes the long way around to realize underwater combat (particularly in this system) is a question of non renewable resources:

there are no magic items of “underwater action” or water breathing, at best I think is Dolphin chant, and shape change spells (or is that dolphin chant too? )

my first spell caster action as GM is unravel the thread…. and then its how much breath someone has…. and then how many scrolls of dolphin chant do they have?

its all about making things harder in the sense of challenging hero resources(mind you thats different than challenging player resources like time left in the slot)

I think those are both the same question, it just takes the long way around to realize underwater combat (particularly in this system) is a question of non renewable resources:

there are no magic items of “underwater action” or water breathing, at best I think is Dolphin chant, and shape change spells (or is that dolphin chant too? )

my first spell caster action as GM is unravel the thread…. and then its how much breath someone has…. and then how many scrolls of dolphin chant do they have?

its all about making things harder in the sense of challenging hero resources(mind you thats different than challenging player resources like time left in the slot)

I guess I see this as very module specific. If you’re going to have an important underwater encounter, the module writer has to provide the means to breathe underwater. The campaign is set up as ‘magic rare’ in that other than runes, players can’t really ‘buy’ magic items. A module writer can’t assume that they the players are going to have Dolphin Chant available. Sure, holding your breath is a renewable resource (I can take a breath and continue) and can provide for some tense situations. However, if there’s no way to take a breath, it hasn’t become a resource issue but a “fight and die vs. flee and live” scenario. Same with the need to fly, climb, or other environment that requires special spells/magical means to traverse.

I may just have to watch the conversation instead of participant as I don’t think I’ve really grasped what it is you’re asking

John

I may just have to watch the conversation instead of participant as I don’t think I’ve really grasped what it is you’re asking

John

I can’t speak for Josh but I’ve had this though during several arcanis mods: these fights aren’t really challenging. I have also had the the thought in BIs and the final fight in Desecration “Whoa!WHOA!!! If the dice go cold this could be a TPK.” What I’ve come away is the thought: because there are no renewable resources PCs don’t always feel challenged because they reset afterwards to full health … unless they are taken to the brink … which is very dangerous in this system since death is a one way ticket.

I know I am interested in rediscovering some kind of middle ground as a player, judge and author. I think broadly that this is what we’re discussing on this thread.

My personal 2 cents