Multiple Patron Deities

I am almost certain this is not allowed in the Legends campaign.

Although all under umbrella organizations (Mother Church, DT etc), the Temples are all seperate organizations that jealously guard their social status and political influence. They all have “secrets” they want to protect. I personally do not see how anyone could openly become a HC to two seperate Temples. I think if you were somehow going down this road you’d have to secretly infiltrate the second one, which is not really viable in a shared world campaign.

I still don’t know if it would be appropriate in the Legends campaign, but you might look at Sword Saint since they are “outside” the official clerisy. In at least a few corner cases I can see where a HC of one Diety who runs with followers of a second allied Diety (say Larissa & Cadic in Savona) might eventually earn something like honorary status (vis-a-via Sword Saint). Just an unofficial thought that might be cool in a home game.

Hello,

I am almost certain this is not allowed in the Legends campaign.

Correct. This is not allowed in the living campaign.

Related questions:

1. So we’ve cleared that you can’t be a caster of two deities in the campaign. I assume this applies to the use of devout talents as well? You can’t qualify for a devout talent that you (essentially) couldn’t qualify for as a caster? Is that assumption correct?
2. Following that question, what happens with regards to devout talents when one becomes an orthodoxy guy with casting from two deities? Can you now take devout talents from two (and just two) deities?
3. Same application for divine runes? You can’t use a rune unless you worship that ONE deity the most, right? But you might be able to use two if you are a orthodoxy pantheonist?
4. To beat a dead horse that keeps kicking, what happens with Pantheonistic males and Saluwe and females and Illiir when they progress through the orthodoxy? i.e., I know to be a caster of Saluwe one needs to be a female, but what about a male of caster of Hurrian who wants to take Saluwe as their second god – are they welcome, or does it need to be a female priestess of Hurrian to be allowed? Before you answer that, riddle the tier III “with one voice” pantheonistic spell (Illiir/saluwe). If one needs to be male to be a caster of Illiir, and be female to be a caster of Saluwe, is this an example of a spell that shouldn’t exist?
5. Hmmm, thinking about that last one, is the requirement for Saluwe that you must be female, or can’t be male? Where do eunuchs fall in acceptance?

The only way for you to qualify for Devout Talents which specify a deity other than your own would be through Paths or Backgrounds that you are legally able to take. For example, an otherwise Illiirite Psionic Inquisitor gets “Sarishan Training” as a talent as part of the path, indicating special training in the practices of another deity.

The bolded section is the question. Once one has access to take devout talents, what does it mean to have a diety? Can you, in effect, decide that you worship 2? We know that in the campaign you can not be a spell caster of two, but if a can a character be a devout enough follower of two dieties to say, “they are both my dieties,” and thus take devout talents from both gods. I think the answer is of course no, but I thought we should clarify the answer to the question that started this thread to multiple formats (not just spellcasting).

2. Following that question, what happens with regards to devout talents when one becomes an orthodoxy guy with casting from two deities? Can you now take devout talents from two (and just two) deities?

As long as the talents are not Limited and are available to all characters (so long as they worship that god) then you should be able to take them.

This answer confuses me, since if a character says that they are worshipping two gods (or more) gods this sounds like it’s allowed, when I think in general its not. I assume what you’re trying to say is that a character that qualifies for pantheonistic can pull from the devout talents of both gods they are studying, but I want to make sure they don’t qualify for all.

As far as I’m aware, if you have Duel Faiths (ta) then you should be able to use runes of multiple dieties as long as the bonus stacks. For example, if you gain a +1 bonus from one god and a +1 bonus from the other, they are similar bonuses from the same source, therefore one would subsume the other. This question, however, would be more appropriate for Matt to answer.

How many multiple? Two, or all?

4. To beat a dead horse that keeps kicking, what happens with Pantheonistic males and Saluwe and females and Illiir when they progress through the orthodoxy? i.e., I know to be a caster of Saluwe one needs to be a female, but what about a male of caster of Hurrian who wants to take Saluwe as their second god – are they welcome, or does it need to be a female priestess of Hurrian to be allowed? Before you answer that, riddle the tier III “with one voice” pantheonistic spell (Illiir/saluwe). If one needs to be male to be a caster of Illiir, and be female to be a caster of Saluwe, is this an example of a spell that shouldn’t exist?

The gender split is a CULTURAL aspect of the MOTHER CHURCH and its derivatives, not the Orthodoxy. The Orthodoxy is designed to reunify the temples so they would be willing (through Duel Faiths) teach people of the opposed sex the spells. However, they would meet all the usual objections within society that they would otherwise have. As such, you can’t have a male caster of Saluwe (ONLY saluwe) who says “I learned it from the Orthodoxy so it’s cool!” because the Orthodoxy works within the Church, and is a SECRET society. They will secretly teach a male illiirite Saluwean stuff, but in public they are still an Illiirite priest and must fit the social norms appropriate to that.

It was my understanding from something that Henry had posted previously that it was not just cultural, there is an actual mechanistic difference between male/female casters in the churches of Saluwe and Illiir. It made me wonder about the fact that there are only two known priestess’s of Illiir, and they both had contact with Valinor and rose to powerful positions. It would be interesting to know how their powers differ from their male counterparts. I just reread the posts that made me think that, and found I might very well be wrong about it being mechanical, not just social restrictions, but I still thought I should check.

And about it being secret, is it possible to cast an illiirite saluwean spell without openly calling upon both dieties? I just wonder if casting that in front of people of either sects would then get you burned at the stake.

As far as I’m aware Coryan doesn’t have a tradition of Eunichs, and nor does any other Known Land nation. Any male eunich would likely be treated as a man, however.

Works for me

Okay, let me be more clear (note: Ultimately this decision is up to Henry or Matt or another member of PCI):

When you have Duel Faiths (ta) you can –
1) Take deity specific talents to either of your two gods, but ONLY if those talents are not Limited. For example, if you were a Nierite who then used Duel Faiths to become an Illiirite as well, you should qualify to take the Lay on Hands talent so long as you meet the other qualifications. However, you would NOT be able to take Perfect Emotions (ta) as it is Limited to the Harbingers of the Dawn order.

2) You can learn Divine spells from a second (human) deity because (in this case) the Orthodoxy is teaching you pantheonistic teachings. In the Mother Church, the various Temples guard their cants and special knowledge jealously, and one of the whole points of the Orthodoxy is to reunify these desperate Temples. However, this is not a popular view, which is why the Orthodoxy is a SECRET society, working to subvert cultural objections behind the scenes. People who try to change religious establishments openly tend to be burned at the stake.

Above everything, remember that the ONLY way of gaining this talent is by 1) Being a member of the Orthodoxy, and 2) Being a ANOINTED PRIEST or HOLY CHAMPION. This means you are already a member (in supposedly good standing) of your Church, and everything you do as part of the Orthodoxy is secretive. As such, if you use this as an excuse for your Female Illiirite to learn spells, saying “Because Orthodoxy!”, then not only would the Church look down on you (hell, even with their Imperial patronage both Elandre’ and Leola got a LOT of flack for being women) but the Orthodoxy would likely kill you for being so indiscreet. A Male Divine-casting Saluwean who started out as an Illiirite Caster would have to keep their Saluwean casting pretty much a secret on par with Eldritch Casters and Harvesters, lest they discover your secret. The Church would probably view you as a heretic for breaking conventions, and the Orthodoxy CERTAINLY would kill you for being indiscreet.

Correction to my previous statement:

After some discussion, it was found that my understanding of the universe and the relationship between the groups was not entirely correct. As such, I shall correct that statement here.

While there may exist Pantheonistic Cants mixing Saluwe’ and Illiir, even within the Orthodoxy the sex restrictions still hold true as, while the Orthodoxy wishes to recreate a unified Pantheonistic form of worship of the Gods, there are some biases they have yet to overcome. According to the Coryani Church (and their derivatives), it is a Divine Mandate that Illiirites are men, and Saluweans are women, and as faithful followers of the Gods, even they do not break this rule.

There will be a rule posted in the Campaign Guide (which is almost done, really!) which will clarify this relationship, as well as more clearly state the sex-specific clergies of Illiir and Saluwe’.

This is a point to be discussed among the campaign staff, but overall Henry has made it quite clear on several occasions he does not want to see Divine Casters or Divine Archetype males of Saluwe.

Speaking as myself only, I see two likely outcomes:

1) Allowing rebuilds to make them legal, removing any Theurgy spells (Divine Spell Casting (ta), Rudimentary Spell Casting (ta), Prestidigitation (ta), etc).

2) Allowing a name change to the character to allow them to remain mechanically viable, but making them of the female sex. For example, Gaius val’Dellenov, Priest of Saluwe’ would then become Gaia val’Dellenov, Priestess of Saluwe’.

Neither are ideal, and as I said will have to be discussed so please keep an eye out for the final decision!

Or continue playing as a Male Priest of Saluwe and expect to be burned at the stake in a future adventure (possibly by Orthodoxy party members).

The issue with this approach is that someone would have had to have been willing to teach them the various cants and based on what’s been shared, that wouldn’t have happened.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul