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  • #265698
    frootsnax
    Participant

    On the broad points that travel is hard and oral information is suspect I have few (or rather no) disagreements. Yeah – walking is hard. I once was part of planning the logistics and hiking an 18 day backpacking trip. Best day? 20 miles (32 km). Worst day on that trip? 2 miles (taking off the pack at several stops to swim through a river). I get the geography of walking and riding.

    At the same time I disagree that most of Onara is mired in ignorance by the tyrannies of geography and illiteracy.

    I think two of the best books on life in “ancient times” are Life in a Medieval City (by Gies) and more recently The Time Traveler’s Guide to Medieval England (by Ian Mortimer). On the point of Geography both paint a much more nuanced picture with a surprising amount of (seasonal/organized) travel. Ian Mortimer is particularly disparaging of the idea no one ever went more than 10 miles from home, since that would have quickly led to inbreeding. He lists the importance of trade, pilgrimages and extended kin renewing familial ties as prime factors that kept society “moving around.” It certainly was not like it is now, where I’ll be jumping on a plane in March just to head to Arcaniscon, but its not everyone in a village forever trapped in one valley either.

    Further I would argue that Arcanis has a huge leg up on the medieval world with a large number of strong centralized states with good infrastructure. Particularly in Altheria, Coryani, & Milandir, I expect most individuals go on the domestic version of “an adventure” a couple of times in their life. They to go to the trade fair, or a cathedral or the big city. Maybe several times.

    How much information gets distorted depends a lot on the information.

    Gossip or entertainment? Sure. I bet they gets blended and changed all the time. On the other hand information that is important to you? Or information that connects with several other things you’ve learned in life? I don’t think that drifts as much. I am pretty sure you remember pretty well the news you get about how uncle Fred, your Dad’s brother and and sometimes business partner, is doing “over there” … and what he’s doing. And if he’s more likely or less likely to repay in full the money you loaned him last year after the bad harvest. I don’t think stuff like that drifts much.

    And then there is the written word. The cants have not drifted at all in at least 3000 years. Some information is amazingly resilient.

    If you have any kind of noble, mercantile or church background you read and write in Arcanis. Broad swaths of “the peasantry” seem to be basically literate as well in Altheria, Censure, Coryan, Haina, Milandir and Ymandragore (see table 2-6 in A:RPG). Though books are (very) expensive a lot of people are clearly learning from something. I assume many families take it as a point of pride to own something similar to the “family bible” or “the classics” (whatever passes for the Illiad on Onara) and that parents educate their children well enough to read and understand a basic contract. Cheap “broadsheets” or “wood cuts” may be popular in towns and cities as well … and carried by traders and peddlers who travel between smaller communities. Vlad Tespesh (aka Dracula) was lampooned by some of his neighbors and rivals in eastern Europe with with woodcuts in the 1400s. The “classic one” you find with a little digging on the internet is a story that he invited all the poor people in his domain to a “feast” and then gruesomely killed them all so he could claim he was such a great ruler his land was free from poverty. (A lie, which may come back to the fallibility of information – still 600 years later its still out there to read word for word…)

    What about something in the middle ground? How many people were there that had something to say about the Coryani Civil war and eventually wrote it down somewhere in some form (journals letters etc)? I’m guessing a lot. Albeit disorganized and scattered across Onara in a zillion private hands. And to be sure many different accounts likely differ a great deal. Ironically it may be the elorii Laerestri who have the best consolidated collection of primary sources for much of recent history. If you could get at it. Probably a great mod kernel somewhere in the idea of the Knowledge Wardens trying to get their hands on Laerestri reports …

    From the player perspective all this my be somewhat academic since PCs, by their very nature, do not necessarily conform to the norms of their society. (One hopes their creation is informed by their society…) In the end, how much your PC knows IC (and on what topics) is largely a role playing choice. If your (grand)parents fought at the battle of Enpyben maybe you know something about “Bug Monsters.” If you think your PC knows about “things” more broadly then I would back that up with skill ranks in Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Myths & Legends).

    #265699
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Further I would argue that Arcanis has a huge leg up on the medieval world with a large number of strong centralized states with good infrastructure. Particularly in Altheria, Coryani, & Milandir, I expect most individuals go on the domestic version of “an adventure” a couple of times in their life. They to go to the trade fair, or a cathedral or the big city. Maybe several times.Altheria, perhaps. We know that Coryan and Milandir have have large peasant/serf populations, not to mention Coryan’s slaves. While it is reasonable to assume that most middle/upper class citizens would have been to a major center periodically throughout their lives, I’m skeptical that the poor would have.
    And then there is the written word. The cants have not drifted at all in at least 3000 years. Some information is amazingly resilient.

    If you have any kind of noble, mercantile or church background you read and write in Arcanis. Broad swaths of “the peasantry” seem to be basically literate as well in Altheria, Censure, Coryan, Haina, Milandir and Ymandragore (see table 2-6 in A:RPG). Though books are (very) expensive a lot of people are clearly learning from something. I assume many families take it as a point of pride to own something similar to the “family bible” or “the classics” (whatever passes for the Illiad on Onara) and that parents educate their children well enough to read and understand a basic contract.I think that you are looking at the world in an overly simplistic way here. Yes, I understand that the core rulebook implies that if you are a Coryani citizen that you are born with the ability to read (exaggerating slightly here). Keep in mind, however, that these rules were written for the heroes, who are generally smarter than the average bear. If you are born to a family of poor farmers, I guarantee that your parents work 16+ hours a day just to keep the farm running (if you are a serf, you work 16+ hours a day for your lord and then have 8 hours a day to tend your own land, sleep, etc). As soon as kids are old enough to help, they go to work to reduce the work load for the parents. There is no formalized schooling system for the lower class so unless you leave to join the church, your likelihood of learning to read is low.

    What about something in the middle ground? How many people were there that had something to say about the Coryani Civil war and eventually wrote it down somewhere in some form (journals letters etc)? I’m guessing a lot. Albeit disorganized and scattered across Onara in a zillion private hands. And to be sure many different accounts likely differ a great deal.Sure, major events like the Civil War or the Wall of the Gods falling would be known across the continent, but per Cody’s post, how long did it take that information to get everywhere, and how accurately was the information transmitted? I guarantee you that there are some back water areas that didn’t hear until a year or more after the fact, and by the time the news got there some details of the story were incorrect. My cousin’s friend’s uncle said that Illir himself rode down from the heavens on a silvery llama to smite Uhxbractit with a holy salted cod. He saw it himself, he was there.

    #265703
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Valinor

    Okay, the last article finally got my creative juices going again, so it is time to delve less into a brief (and slightly error-ridden) analysis of how the physics of our world apply to Arcanis, and more into the narrative minutiae of the universe itself. So without further ado: What are Valinor, really?

    Okay, first of all, let us do the background for those who haven’t dug too deep into the matter. The Valinor are the divine—or semi-divine—servants of eleven out of twelve of the Gods of the Pantheon of Man, with only Anshar not having any within her ‘choir’ for reasons that make sense both in the metanarrative (she’s actually Yig rebranded) and within the universe (suffering goddess and patron of the ill begotten does not need servants). These beings are, functionally, the angels from many of our own religions from Judaism to Zoroastrianism to Islam to Ba’hai, though in appearance they fall very much into the modern Christian aesthetic of tall, beautiful humanoid beings with wings, though with the steel-grey eyes common of the Val’s. They are the servants of the Gods who do their bidding upon the material world, probably doing tasks that having a being of omnipotent cosmic power would be in appropriate (the whole sledge hammer to swat a fly analogy). We also know that these beings (usually) have two names: one ‘given name’ (such as Manetas) and one ‘titular name’ (such as the Pride of Illiir), with the titular name reflecting some aspect of their patron deity that they somehow represent. These beings are among the most powerful creatures which walk (or fly over, as it may be) the world of Arcanis with individual Valinor able to take down almost any threat in existence save for VERY powerful creatures such as True Dragons or (likely) the Sorcerer-King of Ymandragore.

    Now that we all have at least some of the background out of the way, we can start looking at some of the more specific information. The earliest (within the universe) reference that I can find to the existence of the Valinor can be found in the 2nd Edition of the Codex Arcanis (still need to find an original printing. . .) in the descriptions of the Pantheon of Man. Here, it tells us of a time known as the Mythic Age before the God’s War against the Other when the members of the Pantheon did bicker and war with one another. Some say these conflicts were spawned by the Other, while there is at least as much evidence that says that it was Sarish’s doing. Either way, the Valinor were the primary (known) cats paws in this war, with the Valinor of Neroth and Illiir being the most active. In fact, we are told that Sarish (neutral in most conflicts) leant out his own personal Valinor to all sides as mercenaries in exchange for greater powers granted to his own servants by the various conflicting parties.

    During these wars—again, before the Other ‘killed’ the ‘gentlest member of the Pantheon’—the main conflicts seemed to be power plays between the two most powerful of the Gods (at that time, likely), notably Neroth and Illiir due to Neroth’s jealousy of the worship of humanity towards Illiir. We know in this war that Neroth began to lose this war, and eventually killed his ‘brother’ Illiir and leading to the destruction of Illiir’s Paradise. It was in this battle in which Sarish, seeing the balance of power shifting too much to Illiir, sent his own forces to sway the Pride of Illiir (the most powerful of Illiir’s Valinor), leading to his fall from grace and eventually culminating in the troubles of the First Imperium and the events of the Coryani Civil War.

    So, what do we learn from this? Well, for one it shows a possible source as to why the Valinor existed. During the Mythic Age, the Pantheon of Man warred against many Elder Beings (as seen in the fluff text in the 3.5 Players Guide for the Warped One prestige class) as well as among themselves. In all likelihood the Valinor were originally either created or recruited to act as soldiers in the Gods’ various wars. In the story told by the Hara’mia of the Khi’faree, we are told that the GODS of the Pantheon travelled back from the end of time to throw him and his brethren down from their position on this world, but are given no references to the Valinor being present. Alternatively, after the ‘Children of Illiir’ (humans) arrived in the annals of history, the Valinor already seemed to exist. This suggests—to me—that the Valinor were either created, recruited, or suborned into the service of the Pantheon of Man after their little time-travel shenanigans, but before humans were either created or (somehow) fell under Illiir’s sway.

    It also tells us that the Gods have the ability to grant specific powers and abilities to their Valinor, as seen with Sarish’s ‘mercenary’ Valinor during the Mythic Age. In fact, the appeal of such power was so enticing to the Valinor that many of them actually (are said) to have abandoned their previous patron in favour of siding with Sarish. After the Wars among the Gods, these ‘betraying’ Valinor were given a choice by Sarish to either be cast out from the Gods or be given positions as the generals in Sarish’s demon armies fighting the continued battles of the Gods. We have (potentially) seen examples of both of these, with the existence of Fallen Valinor (such as Xabal and Zirth of Garundi) who are not leading Demon armies, and others (such as Urumeh, the Honour of Cadic) who are fallen and are leading battles against the chaos of entropy. This information suggests that the Valinor may have reached their current form due to being ‘empowered’ by the Gods, and may once have been a more minor race of mortals. This is interesting as their creation could be the very same creation as that of mankind (or maybe even the Celestial Giants, for all we know!), but the Valinor are simply a more. . . godly subset of this population whose natures have been twisted into their current form by their close contact with the Pantheon of Man.

    The possibility of an ‘uplifted’ race could be mirrored in what we’ve seen of other races, gods, and other beings in this universe. When Saluwe’, Hurrian, Nier, and Yarris needed more power to defeat the Other, they ‘absorbed’ the essence of the Elemental Lords to become more than what they were before. The Sorcerer-King has done everything he can to ‘uplift’ himself by seeking the means of making himself a god. The Valinor themselves were able to imbue through some means normal humans with a percentage of their own divine essence, giving them supernatural abilities and the ability to access psionic powers. With this kind of metaphysics in the universe, this theory is as sound as any other, and could explain why there is no mention (that I can find) of the Gods simply ‘making’ the Valinor as many have ascribed to the Judeo-Christian God and his/her/their angels.

    This is somewhat muddled by the words of the Love of Illiir who says that a God cannot harm their Valinor, for the killing of a Valinor (such as Manetas) would be akin to hacking off ones own limb. This may be a poetic way of describing a relationship such as a parent to a child, where the parent simply could not fathom harming their child no matter what their transgressions, but it could imply a more direct connection. When the Love of Illiir was asked if Illiir would lose his love of humanity if (s)he died, (s)he scoffed it off saying that the Gods were more complicated than that. This gives us somewhat confusing views as to what ‘role’ exactly each Valinor’s relationship is to their patron, as each (known) Valinor has some title which reflects an ‘aspect’ of their God. Some are clear like the Reluctance of Hurrian, the Pride of Illiir, and the Hatred of Neroth, while others are more abstract like the Dreaming of Larissa or the Blade of Nier. While the exact nature of these name relationships is up for debate, it is undeniable that they have some power behind them. When the Reluctance of Hurrian released his brother Valinor the Wrath of Hurrian from his chest (a reference to the Warped One myth in the 3.5 Players Guide?), a continent/world-spanning storm was released. When the Reluctance ‘died’ and went to the Paradise of the Gods, the val’Tensen emerged from the Storm with far less control over their own rage. This means that, whatever power the Reluctance of Hurrian had upon them (maybe their family’s scion?) was manifested even though they were not directly touched by the divine.

    We also know that—unlike the angels in Abrahamic religions, specifically Islam—they have at least a limited amount of free will in that they can consciously choose to abandon their “God” for another. This also supports how the Pride of Illiir could be ‘led astray’ by Sarish and his servants (such as the every machinatious Cunning of Sarish, Loshnek); how the Patience of Illiir could defy his orders by losing his patience, becoming Xabal; and how others like the Hatred of Neroth can be so murderous and psychopathic. In fact, in the penultimate adventure of the 3.5 campaign, we learn that not all of the Valinoric Host is opposed to Manetas’ ‘usurping’ of Illiir and the rest of the Pantheon, with others (such as the Hatred of Neroth) actively supporting him. Others, like the Love of Illiir (the only Valinor in Valinoric form that anyone in the campaign has interacted with, aside from the val’Sosi) were in a faction who professed to be serving the God’s wishes to protect and let humanity rise and fall on their own. There are even those who did not take ANY side, but were compelled into action through the use of the Horn of Tultipetian. The existence of this Horn does belie some of the Valinor’s ‘free will’ as it was a command to summon their host, but since it was said to be made by Yarris himself, surely the Gods have the power to will even those of free will to do what they want. Hell, we now know that the Dreaming of Larissa (or whatever being is now the Sleeping Emperor of Khitan) appears to agree 100% with Manetas’ methods, if not him in general, as the ‘Valinor’ invoked Manetas’ name in the positive when leading the Khitani to their new home. As in a possible future in the 3.5 campaign (to Pierce the Veil of Darkness and Light) shows the corpse of the Sleeping Emperor on the Coryani Cathedral of the Pantheon/Illiir (at the time) it seems the two beings, while alike in many aims, disagree on certain other points, however.

    Moving back to the names of the Valinor, the Codex Arcanis lets us know that their ‘titular name’ is not their true name. It is because of this that the “ of ” titles have gained traction among humanity, as each Valinor is known by the role they serve for the Gods. This is very common to the Jewish (and Christian and Muslim) archangels, where their names literally mean “ of God.” For example, Michael means “Who is like God”, Gabriel means “The strength of God”, Samael means “The severity of God” (angel of death), etc. It is possible that the “Valinoric Names” are simply literal translations into English of similar names. In fact, it is from these that we may get names such as “Manetas”, as in my reading I have not found any source for this name (as opposed to Xabal, who was purportedly given his name by the people he saved). As this name is very pronounceable, it means it is either not his ‘true’ name, or is a contraction similar to how Skizz (the Strength of Saluwe’) is a contraction of Skozorantus (which, while difficult to pronounce, is still very possible).

    Mechanically, we actually have some really good data as to what a Valinor IS, at least in the now obsolete 3.5 days. In those rules, the Valinor qualify as Divine Level 1 divine beings, which corresponds to a demi-god. These beings are able to grant divine spells to their followers (which are only a few thousand in number) following the D&D tropes of divine magic, and have a whole host of other powers which I invite you all to look into. Manetas, with the stats provided in “The Last Rays of a Dying Sun” was a 50th level character, with the 20 levels of “Outsider” common of divine celestials. The other 30 levels were split between the Harbinger of the Dawn, Cleric, and Divine Emissary classes, giving him legal access to a wide range of spells and abilities tied to Illiirite worship. I am not the greatest for the Divine Rules of 3.5, and while I know that even demi-gods can provide spells to their followers, do the same demi-gods have to get their own spells from a higher ranked god? If this is so, could Manetas still be ‘in the service’ of the Gods, at least somewhat? This is less of an issue in the current rules set, but Henry has previously mentioned that when Xabal fell and recreated the Pantheonistic worship in Bastion, he was only able to teach those spells that were accessible by a worshipper of Illiir. While there may be ‘priests’ of Sarish and Saluwe’ and Yarris in Bastion, only the Illiirites could call upon Cants as Xabal knew nothing else.

    All that being said, there was one other point from the final 3.5 adventure prior to the Grand Coryan BI of note: When the Heroes found Villa’tavorentes, the dragon informed them that mere mortals could not harm the divine, only the divine (or those equally powerful) could accomplish that feat. In that adventure, the dragon offered to bathe the heroes in his own blood to infuse them (temporarily) with the divine might needed to actually strike the Valinor. Mechanically, this may be similar to a Natural AR in the current game, but at the time did not really have a mechanical effect. Even in his ‘depowered’ form, he still maintained DR/15 (Epic) which from my read of the stats remained in effect even after the dragon-blood bath beyond “You can now hit him.” I do not know if this means that Valinor have a ‘mortal-proof’ shield around them, or simply that you need suitably powerful weapons to actually dent their divine-empowered hide, but either way it makes the accomplishments of the dragons and Elder Elorii to down these creatures fairly impressive.

    Beyond these mechanics, we also know that the Valinor have at least some potential for psionic magic. When the Val race was created by imbuing humanity with Valinoric essence, it unlocked the potential for control over the Arcanum with the power of the mind. This implies that the Valinor themselves must also have similar powers to allow the new Val race to have this ability. However, the single ‘empowered’ Valinor statblock we have does not show any ability that I can see for Psionic magic, which would suggest that maybe I am in error and that it simply tapped a pre-existing human capacity. On the other hand, while not a “Valinor” any longer, the ‘stripped’ version of Urumeh seen in “To Pierce the Veil of Darkness and Light” WAS psionic in his diminished form, which means that the Valinor may not be naturally psionic, but like Vals requires an awakening that not all Valinor do or are mentally capable of.

    Another trait to note is that Valinor are not infallible. While in this setting the Gods like the Fire Dragon, Illiir, and likely Belisarda are viewed as somewhere between the very human-like Greek Gods and the nebulous concept that matches the Christian God in that they seem to have at least some means of manifesting as a physical, tangible being, but are so powerful our puny minds can only scratch the surface of what they are thinking. The Gods generally have the ability to see all and hear all of what is going on in their domains—at least so long as other Gods aren’t involved—which gives them a level of omniscience. The Valinor, however, do not have that. While very powerful and very observant, you can fool a Valinor. The whole “Champions of Light” mission passed under Manetas’ nose sufficiently that he did not choose to get involved until he almost literally could do nothing about it. The Love of Illiir didn’t even know how Manetas was freed from his original prison in Nishanpur, even though it was by a group of mortal Heroes (see: the Blood Reign of Nishanpur). In many ways, the Valinor seem to be something of a ‘missing link’ between humanity and the Gods, with enough ‘divine essence’ to glimpse a fraction of the God’s will directly, while being flawed vessels as simply mortals are. Hell, the Love of Illiir didn’t even know if the Gods were still alive (or, refused to give a more clear answer), only saying that if they were dead/failed in their mission all of creation was doomed.

    The next topic of interest is the Valinoric mission. According to the Love of Illiir (and some things Henry has let loose), the Gods have left Arcanis to fight the even more nebulous concept of ‘Oblivion.’ In their stead, they left the Valinor to watch and protect humanity until such a time that they will be needed. In this roll, the majority of the Host have basically taken the United Federation of Planet’s Prime Directive to heart and refuse to interfere in the rise and fall of mankind. Even when Manetas threatened to enslave them all, bringing in his own Valinoric army to help him, the majority of the Host required the Horn of Tultipetian to stir them to action (against their own will, I might add). These Valinor were also the ‘source’ of all the Divine Spells in the 3.5 days, providing all the clerics with their prayed-for spells in the stead of the God.

    So, where does this leave us? Honestly, I barely know. The Valinor are an extremely complicated subject that we have very little solid evidence to go on. While there are many references to them in Arcanis canon, very few seem to take the time to stop and chat with mortals of our realm, regardless of race or allegiance. Those few we have seen—Loshnek, Xabal, the Love of Illiir, and Manetas—seem to have no interest in providing us further details to understand who and what they are. Only time will tell as to if we can learn about this interesting—and terrifying—race.

    #265709
    frootsnax
    Participant

    Further I would argue that Arcanis has a huge leg up on the medieval world with a large number of strong centralized states with good infrastructure. Particularly in Altheria, Coryani, & Milandir, I expect most individuals go on the domestic version of “an adventure” a couple of times in their life. They to go to the trade fair, or a cathedral or the big city. Maybe several times.Altheria, perhaps. We know that Coryan and Milandir have have large peasant/serf populations, not to mention Coryan’s slaves. While it is reasonable to assume that most middle/upper class citizens would have been to a major center periodically throughout their lives, I’m skeptical that the poor would have.

    Being a peasant means a hard life, harder than anything I do, but there are good years and bad years. In the bad years people starve which is a slow/horrible way to go. But there are good years too. Both Milandir and Coryani are blessed agriculturally. I believe there are plenty of peasants who come out somewhat ahead in most years. In those years I think some travel is doable. Even for people of very modest means. I do concede that a rural slave in the Coryani version of a Latifunda (Roman plantations/farms run by slave labor) isn’t going anywhere.

    My cousin’s friend’s uncle said that Illir himself rode down from the heavens on a silvery llama to smite Uhxbractit with a holy salted cod. He saw it himself, he was there. Love me a silver Llama!!! \":P\"

    Okay. I don’t challenge any of this. Sure this report reaches the boonies a year late. In its mangled silver glory. What I do challenge is that many (N)PCs are condemned to such a slippery report on reality. I believe that having even a modest set of connections (by being part of the Mother Church, or a noble house, secret society, blah blah blah) frees you from having to accept or ignore such dubious narratives…though you may have to sort through several such reports.

    #265710
    frootsnax
    Participant

    VALINOR

    I wrote a Tukufu letter on Valinor. While it focused primarily on the difference between the states of being either fallen or “in grace” it touched upon some of Cody’s points. OOC I’d just add a few bullet points:

    1) I do not recall ever seeing a direct reference to any Valinor from Yarris. I suspect, like Yig/Anshar he doesn’t have any.
    2) Only some True Gods have Valinor. Many (Belisarda, Kassegore, & Yig) do not.
    3) The PoM have other divine or semi divine servants as well. There are the Veil Walkers who patrol the Underworld (see For the lesser Gods) and Celestial Shield Maidens (mentioned in passing on pg 5 of the Bestiary).
    4) I would forget the old rules where valinor granted spells or had a stat block. Valinor work and move at the speed of plot. (and Cants now have their own (on some levels deeply weird) rules). Its true Manetas had stats at the end of the campaign, but he also had different (much more pedestrian) stats in Blood Reign of Nishanpur. And when he waved his hands on the steps of the capitol and immolated the Brotherhood of Man assassins, he wasn’t working off of either sets of stat blocks. The upper limit on the power they have displayed involves unleashing hurricanes and teaming up to kill (or subdue) the True Dragons.

    Beyond that we get into guesswork. To know more about the Valinor I think we need to know more about their creators,the PoM. The PoM, as far we can tell are NOT: Ancient creator deities like Kassegore (POM did not create humanity). Nor are they creepy ancient things (well maybe Yarris) like Tzihet – they have an agenda much more developed than eating the souls of sacrifices; nor are the POM planetary sized life spirits like Belisarda. So what are they? We don’t really know, but I suspect that like the Varn the PoM started off as something smaller than what they are now. And I suspect that Valinor are a byproduct/effect of how the PoM gained divinity…which if true might explain why most PoM members have them and no one else does.

    Because the PoM is known to have played games by jumping forward and back through time we should consider that the PoM may primarily use Valinor to guard the timeline from undesirable influences and to ensure that certain things unfold and happen as required by “The Divine Plan.”

    #265711
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Okay. I don’t challenge any of this. Sure this report reaches the boonies a year late. In its mangled silver glory. What I do challenge is that many (N)PCs are condemned to such a slippery report on reality. I believe that having even a modest set of connections (by being part of the Mother Church, or a noble house, secret society, blah blah blah) frees you from having to accept or ignore such dubious narratives…though you may have to sort through several such reports.

    I would agree with you…although I think that the job of sorting through those reports would occasionally be difficult (i.e. What Lies Beneath).

    Thoroughly enjoying the Valinor discussion by the way, good job once more.

    #265713
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    VALINOR
    Because the PoM is known to have played games by jumping forward and back through time we should consider that the PoM may primarily use Valinor to guard the timeline from undesirable influences and to ensure that certain things unfold and happen as required by “The Divine Plan.”

    There’s also the very real possibility that the gods of the PoM were the greatest of the Valinor, elevated or evolved to a higher level at some point from a common stock race that the Valinor come from. Those devoted followers were then elevated to a lower status in exchange for their service.

    The Valinor in turn may have originated from the evolution of the greatest of the val and so on, back to the “base” human race. The Blood Wars tie into this notion of the pyramid.

    This may be a case where a possible future for the world simply creates itself with the higher level beings ensuring that the earlier steps of the evolution are where/when they should be.

    Separately and back to one of Cody’s theories / questions regarding whether the Valinor are naturally psionic or not given that the val race is, it’s possible that only Valinor that did have the capability for psionics were allowed to spawn the val sub-race. Eric has mentioned other servants of the gods such as the Celestial Shield Maidens. Perhaps those represent the children of the non-psionic val, contributing other powers / gifts to them.

    I doubt we’ll ever know the full truth, but the speculation is fun.

    With a sweep of his hat,

    Paul

    #265715
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    While I agree that in many societies the general plebes may be illiterate, I suspect that most populations probably have someone that can read and check written documents (akin to the town priest historically). Additionally, my impression from modules is that while actual books might be expensive, it does seem that fliers and other “published” material probably produced by printing press (or possibly lithography) is reasonably common, leading to the ability to rapidly disseminate limited knowledge.

    Also, you are missing a historic form of information exchange – homing pigeon, raven, etc. I don’t think we know for a fact that such a bird exists in the campaign, but it seems highly likely that it does, since it is period and even humans have shown the degree of breeding/magic control to design such creatures. And considering the value in this type of creature, it seems likely that if they can be designed/trained, they have been. This method doesn’t allow for large texts to be transmitted, of course, but fairly fast and accurate transmission of important information should be available.

    Finally, I think you devalue the Ansharan gates a bit. It seems likely that organizations regularly pool their money to send transmissions through gates. Just one courier carrying bags from numerous consortiums might easily make a weekly opening of a gate from location X to Y cost effective, and encourage rapid dispersal of information.

    Finally, with paper readily available, writing reasonably common, and multiple method of transit available; we’ve seen that many people (val families, trade associations, secret societies, governments) send information extremely regularly over distances so there does appear to be quick dispersal of information throughout the known lands – in writing, which would seem to significantly reduce the issues in a game of “telephone.” You still have issues in what communique’s you trust, and whether the writer was being accurate or providing spin on events, but it seems that significant information can travel quickly.

    In general, it seems that the world of Arcanis is generally more literate, has greater amounts and access to written material, and has more/better modes of transport of than medieval Europe; which should lead to commensurate increases in data transmission and accuracy (especially when you throw in divination magic to increase data gathering and truth-checking)

    #265717
    frootsnax
    Participant

    This may be a case where a possible future for the world simply creates itself with the higher level beings ensuring that the earlier steps of the evolution are where/when they should be.

    I call this (maybe with my tongue in my cheek) the Terminator model. I suspect that this is case. And if the Ascension has/will take place on Arcanis (perhaps because of the Birthing Chamber of the Gods) then we have a pretty good idea why “everyone” keeps coming here.

    Separately and back to one of Cody’s theories / questions regarding whether the Valinor are naturally psionic or not given that the val race is, it’s possible that only Valinor that did have the capability for psionics were allowed to spawn the val sub-race. Eric has mentioned other servants of the gods such as the Celestial Shield Maidens. Perhaps those represent the children of the non-psionic val, contributing other powers / gifts to them.

    I believe Valinor all wield the Arcanum through abilities that are essentially psionic in nature – regardless of what past stat blocks have said. We know they (Valinor) have an organ that can harness the ambient “cosmic energy” and use it to create (massively powerful) spell effects. That’s psionics even if the end effect doesn’t match what we/PCs understand as the normal psionic traditions. From Xabal we also know that they are knowledgeable in the Cants of their patron Deity. If psionic power was inefficient in some instance they might wield cants as well. Assuming they still have faith in their patron. Its hard for me to picture Manetas wielding the Cants of Illiir.

    #265718
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Do remember, faith in a god doesn’t mean submission to them. Hell, Manetas could have considered subjugating humanity to his whims the ultimate extension of Illiir’s perfection. He is the god of asceticism, where his followers are commanded to not give into their urges in the strive for perfection. What Manetas demanded was simply a literal view of this.

    #265721
    frootsnax
    Participant

    Do remember, faith in a god doesn’t mean submission to them. Hell, Manetas could have considered subjugating humanity to his whims the ultimate extension of Illiir’s perfection. He is the god of asceticism, where his followers are commanded to not give into their urges in the strive for perfection. What Manetas demanded was simply a literal view of this.

    My understanding is that Manetas sought to replace/usurp Illiir. He sought to steal his worshippers. That’s not (IMO) remotely compatible with any form of following Illiir. I don’t think Manetas could have used the Cants even though he knew them…on the other hand with his massive psionic powers I’m sure he could have faked it from a mortal viewpoint.

    #265725
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I love the topic of the Valinor.

    Cody I believe you are mixing two different times in history in your third paragraph. The Codex Arcanis 2nd Ed. does mention the War of the Gods (page 2.) This was when the Other convinced Valinor and humans to side with it, fight the Pantheon (and possibly killed the gentlest of the Pantheon) ending with the Other fleeing and the Pantheon following. That section is told to be the version that the Mother Church tells the people (Common Man’s History).
    The second time period is the fight between Illiir and Neroth leading to fall of Manetas. This was after the First Imperium had already been built, over 2000 years later (according to the Time line given the 3.5 Ssethregoran book). This information about the fighting between Illiir and Neroth, Sarish interceding, and Manatas falling is from Blood Reign of Nishanpur pg 31. It is written out of the module, as addition info for the GM about NPCs present. So more reliable then in-game info.

    Also this leads to a point I made in another thread about Valinor. Besides the Codex Arcanis mentioning them crossing with the gods, and a single reference of a Valinor (not named) attacking Belestor. Every other source talks about Valinor appearing after the creation of the First City. That is when you start getting their names and their deeds. Even the 3 Valinor that you can hear speak only mention happening after the Fall of Belestor. The Love of Illiir talks about the Manetas’s first attack, and the Gods leaving. The Serentiy of Beltine talks about her attack on Akrosia. The Pride of Illiir talks about creating the val’Assantes. They were needed to attack the enemies of humans. First used to defeat Elorii citadels like Akrosia and then used to destroy the dragons.

    The Humans despaired at their lack of success and prayed to their deities for guidance. The answer they received came in the form of a host of Valinor. The Valinor descended upon the glittering citadel and began to lay waste to its defenses.

    -2100 Dragon War begins
    -1810 Celestial Giants make a pact with the Human Gods; The Valinor enter the war

    Your sixth paragraph mentions Sarish remaining neutral during the Gods’ War and gaining many new Valinor. (from pg 4 of the Codex Arcanis.) But this is still in the perspective of the Mother Church talking to the common man. To me it seems more likely that the fallen Valinor came from Manetas’ original attempted coup. He did convince 1/3 of the host to join him. (Blood Reign of Nishapur pg 31

    As I posted in another thread. There is one other mention of beings similarly built like Valinor. Not in appearance but in the way you describe it. A facet of their god, that is divine in nature and can grant spells. The Issori Gods. I’ll just copy my old comments here and edit them to avoid repetition.

    In the old Arc there were two modules
    LA-SP5-05 To Spin An Ancient Web
    LA-SP5-10 Trembling of an Ancient Web

    These gave a glimpse at the ancient civilization of the Issori. The culture that controlled the First City before the Ssethrics. In their culture there was one God with many facets. ie Anger, Protector, Prophecy, etc. During their fight against the Ssethregoran Empire the facets began to go mad and die. The Issori learned to contain the mad facets into giant crystals. But once they contained one they lost that aspect of themselves. When they contained the Anger facet they lost their drive for war and lost the First City to the Ssethrics.
    That sounds a lot like when the Reluctance of Hurrian was killed and the Wrath of Hurrian was freed. The val’Tensen became quicker to anger and more unruly.
    Taking this further these modules also state that highly devote clerics of the Issori god could become facets and choose what aspect they represented. The other clerics were not sure how this happened. The Issori claimed that they could worship these facets for limited power the same way that worshiping their God granted but weaker.

    I wonder if the Issori facets are the same thing as Valinor.

    Perhaps there is something the First City that allows someone to become an Issori facet or human Valinor. Something that both the Ssethrics and Elorii never found.

    If we look at Valinor. They are each an aspect of a god. This thread has an incomplete list.
    http://forums.paradigmconcepts.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=730

    From the old campaign Manetas had worshipers and granted them power. Specifically they counted as a different church for the sake of Smite Infidel. And he could curse those that defiled his Holy places.
    Also from the old campaign The Year of Ill Harvest (the published book) a human extracts an organ from a Valinor, implants it into himself and slowly begins to change into a Valinor (or Valinor-like) as well.
    Finally in “the Page” from the Black Book of Ymandragore it documents the Sorcerer King successfully implanting the organ in himself. And I don’t think anyone would argue that the SK is a powerful being. (This is also info given from The Year of Ill Harvest.)

    So coming back to Valinor, and moving to the idea of ascension. I think there is something in the First City that the Issori used, and the humans found that can turn a lesser being like a human directly into a divine being like a Valinor. Looking back at my old post and these new comments by everyone here. I had a new thought what if the True Dragons, children of Kassegore and Yig, are in fact Ssethrics version of Valinor. Lesser beings transformed to greater divine ones they were worship for a time but not greatly. Jaggel Sag is still worshiped. And like Cody said a True Dragon’s blood was used to empower the heroes in the last campaign. I’d have to check the Ssethregoran book more closely now that I think about this. Only the Elorii never found the source of this ascension.

    #265726
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    You are correct about the timeline of Blood Reign, I was doing it from memory so I guess I am prone to errors.

    For reference –

    Yes, Sarish tempted him away from Illiir’s service by appealing to his pride during the First Imperium. This lead him–according to BRoN–to form his own Cult, the events of which we seem to now have in the released History section of the Blessed Lands book. When Manetas became too powerful Sarish (or, at the very least, through the action of Loshnek most likely) found a way for the citizens of the Imperium to imprison him in a bone-statue which at least eventually found its way to Nishanpur (if it wasn’t there to start with). He was released because some foolish hero actually put blood to the lips of the statue, freeing him from his bondage.

    The actual timeline of Sarish’s manipulations of Manetas are a little more. . . fluid, however. We have in canon that peace was made between the warring Pantheon of Man when the Other started the God’s War by killing the missing member of the Pantheon, which suggests that Manetas was wooed by Sarish at this time. It is possible that Sarish planted the seeds of discontent, but it wasn’t until after the God’s War and the formation of the First Imperium that it truly begun to take root. By this point the Gods were gone to wherever they went, so Manetas was probably (one of) the leader(s) of the Host that was left to defend mankind, which would have made it easier for him to recruit 1/3 of the Valinoric host to his cause. After all, with the Gods gone, who is going to control the most powerful of their servants?

    If we go by this timeline, we can get a bit more ‘realistic’ view of how it went, because while Illiir could not kill Manetas (“for it would be like cutting off his own arm” as the Love of Illiir suggested), surely the GODS could do SOMETHING about 1/3 of the Valinoric Host revolting!!! It also took a century of what we now know was Manetas manipulating the First Imperium before he managed to take power, and it was through the actions of Man (at least partially) that he fell from power, which is 100% Loshnek’s style based on what happened in the Coryani Civil War.

    Also of note, according to BRoN, Valinor have 6 fingered hands (or, at least the statue did), which is neat/strange.

    #265727
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Because the original article was already SUPER long, I didn’t include one other point, but I thought I’d expand upon it.

    Roles of the Valinor

    The Valinor seem to have a very interesting series of roles which implies that each Valinor is not created equal. Some Valinor–such as the Serenity of Beltine, Hatred of Neroth, Temperance of Nier, etc–seem to be straight up martial-angel types and appear to be the foot soldiers of the Gods. The Serenity was captured at the assault upon Arkhosia during the harrying of the Elorii at the end of the God’s War, the Hatred was seen as a particularly unpleasant combatant in the Battle of Grand Coryan (who was bound in Neroth’s Hell), and the Temperance was one of the many Valinor lost in the Dragon War (him to Jeggal Sag). These Valinor seem to indicate that the Valinor were created to be an uber-warrior type of creature in the service of the Gods. Supporting this, Manetas (the Pride of Illiir) was considered to be a General of Illiir’s host, which suggests a similar role, but displays a heirarchy within the Host.

    On the other hand, you have other Valinor such as the Judgement of Nier or the Reluctance of Hurrian, who seem to have specific roles. The most prominent of these is the Judgement of Nier, who is the Valinor/being who acts as final judge of a human(kin) soul going to the Paradise of the Gods or to Beltine’s Cauldron. This role seems WAY more powerful or important than simple foot soldiers or even commanders of the Host. This Valinor has power over souls that seems second only to Beltine herself, which (though in Nier’s wheelhouse of responsibility to judge) makes me tilt my head in confusion as to why one of Beltine’s own Valinor aren’t involved. In fact, I wonder if perhaps the Judgement of Nier is similar to what we are told about Sarish’s ‘fallen’ Valinor who were granted additional powers by other Gods. What I also find strange is that, despite his obvious authority and power (the Judgement of Nier was also involved in the final battle with Jeggal Sag), Manetas is still viewed as being the most powerful of the Valinor. Moving onto the Reluctance of Hurrian, as mentioned elsewhere the events of the storm showed that Valinor can do some very. . . unique things. In the Reluctance’s case, (s)he seemed to be acting as a living prison to another Valinor, namely the Wrath of Hurrian. How this happened I cannot say, but the ability to trap the soul/body/mind/etc of a creature as powerful as a Valinor into another suggests some pretty powerful juju.

    #265728
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    While I agree that in many societies the general plebes may be illiterate, I suspect that most populations probably have someone that can read and check written documents (akin to the town priest historically). Additionally, my impression from modules is that while actual books might be expensive, it does seem that fliers and other “published” material probably produced by printing press (or possibly lithography) is reasonably common, leading to the ability to rapidly disseminate limited knowledge.

    Also, you are missing a historic form of information exchange – homing pigeon, raven, etc. I don’t think we know for a fact that such a bird exists in the campaign, but it seems highly likely that it does, since it is period and even humans have shown the degree of breeding/magic control to design such creatures. And considering the value in this type of creature, it seems likely that if they can be designed/trained, they have been. This method doesn’t allow for large texts to be transmitted, of course, but fairly fast and accurate transmission of important information should be available.

    Finally, I think you devalue the Ansharan gates a bit. It seems likely that organizations regularly pool their money to send transmissions through gates. Just one courier carrying bags from numerous consortiums might easily make a weekly opening of a gate from location X to Y cost effective, and encourage rapid dispersal of information.

    Finally, with paper readily available, writing reasonably common, and multiple method of transit available; we’ve seen that many people (val families, trade associations, secret societies, governments) send information extremely regularly over distances so there does appear to be quick dispersal of information throughout the known lands – in writing, which would seem to significantly reduce the issues in a game of “telephone.” You still have issues in what communique’s you trust, and whether the writer was being accurate or providing spin on events, but it seems that significant information can travel quickly.

    In general, it seems that the world of Arcanis is generally more literate, has greater amounts and access to written material, and has more/better modes of transport of than medieval Europe; which should lead to commensurate increases in data transmission and accuracy (especially when you throw in divination magic to increase data gathering and truth-checking)

    I will agree with you that overall literacy is probably higher on Onara than Europe between 500 BC and 1500 AD, but do remember that during the Roman Empire, literacy rates are only estimated to be between 7% and 16%. Even doubling that, you still have an average of only about 24%, which while impressive for the time still makes the transmission of written records (most of which are unique documents because of the lack of widespread printing presses) very difficult.

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