Optimization

John i think part of your problem here is a push back from 3.5 days where the whip was too powerful and your seeing the result.

i can recall some rediculously powerful steel whip builds from 3.5 arcanis, i dont really remember how they were built tho

i can recall some rediculously powerful steel whip builds from 3.5 arcanis, i dont really remember how they were built tho

Well it’s disappointing that certain weapons were ‘nerfed’ due to the 3.5 days while other weapons were made stronger in their place in the new systems.

I’m not sure that any weapons were specifically ‘nerfed’ when building the new system. That would be a question for Pedro.

As for tripping with a steel whip, you have the option of combing the simple combat maneuver Trip with the weapon trick Long strike.

Steel Whip Long Strike + Trip = Range 10′, Speed 7(3), Weapon Damage (Mi or Qu), if also bypass Fortitude, Target falls.

You are subject to Free strikes, but because you have range 10′ you have the opportunity to maneuver away from them. Unless your target has a reach weapon, they can’t respond. An opponent under recovery I don’t think can make a free strike either, so that ‘penalty’ may not apply depending. If you’re fighting a high fortitude opponent you’d still do damage if you bypass their Avoidance, even if you don’t bypass their Fortitude.

This strikes me as better potentially than the 6(1) Improved Trip option.

Small Shield Slam has an edge when next to the opponent, 4(4), Weapon damage, prone plus push 3 but not at range. They lose their avoidance bonus which is a penalty.

With a whip because it already has Range 10′ you can combine the Trip with another maneuver.

Submitting ideas for maneuvers, perhaps as a combination of Long Strike and Improved Trip or something to that effect might work.

With a sweep of his…

Hat

Small Shield Slam has an edge when next to the opponent, 4(4), Weapon damage, prone plus push 3 but not at range. They lose their avoidance bonus which is a penalty.

With a sweep of his…

Hat

On this note, I think it would be 3 (4) for small shield, 4 (4) for large shield. Also, is it not possible to combine “Throw the Shield” with “Shield Bash” and have it occur at range? If not, then I’ve not seen anything that said base maneuvers need to share the same ‘range’.

John

As for the other part, is there some official explanation or ruling you can point to?

With a sweep of his…

Hat

It was officially stated by Pedro on the old boards. Other than that, there’s nothing other than they are called “Simple Combat Maneuvers” rather than “Base Combat Maneuvers”.

John

I don’t know if it’s explicitly spelled out in the rules or not but I’ve always assumed you can not combine a melee and ranged maneuver/trick (because it almost never makes any sense).

This is probably a good rule of thumb (even if it’s not stated). I just remember seeing some potentially cool combos by combining them I haven’t done a ‘count’ but I’m guessing if ranged can only be combined with ranged, there won’t be a ton of advanced maneuvers that can be created for thrown weapons.

John

ok you guys posted some confusing things regarding limited what maneuvers you can combine (regarding ranged and melee maneuvers)

Here is the pertinent portion of the rules:

Weapons: Both maneuvers must be able to be performed with the same weapon.

that means specifically that I can combine Lunge (any melee weapon or unarmed) and Twin throw (Dagger) to move up to half my movement and then throw 2 daggers as a ranged attack.

Josh’s Supah Dupah Barrel Roll Dagger Throw Attack with Special Sauce
Requirements: Quickness 6, Melee (any) +3
Category: Advanced
Attack: Avoidance (Pr)
Speed (Recovery): +1(6) [+1 (5) & +1 (2)]
Range: 30’ (1 or 2 Targets) or melee See below
Effect: Weapon;
you can move up to half your Pace before performing this attack. Movement provided by this maneuver may trigger free strikes.
you may throw two daggers at two different Targets at range or you may attack one target with two daggers in which case you simply deal an additional weapon damage die.
Special: If you also possess the Quick Draw Talent, drawing the daggers for this maneuver is considered part of the maneuver and does not increases the Speed of the maneuver.
Weapons: Dagger.

HOWEVER
Advanced maneuvers don’t account for range.

Range (X’) Range describes what kind of attack (melee or ranged) the maneuver may be used with.

You guys are right they probably should account for range, what happens if we combine a couple of bow maneuvers ( precise aim 30′ and twin arrows 60′ for example ), i would think logic dictates that we take the smaller of the two ranges, with melee being the smallest range.

so if you really wanted to do that barrel roll attack, I’d say go for it, at melee range your going to incur a free strike.