Perception (reposted here on recommendation)

I agree. As long as there is nothing as stupid as a Shadow dancer’s ability to “hide in plain sight” (HIPS), while being observed, I don’t see how having someone be “broken” with stealth is even broken.

Agreed. I’ve yet to see any system whether this, D&D in any iteration, Spycraft, Dark Heresy, and others not suffer for making that specific mistake with skill-based Invisibility.

Maybe I’m wrong. I haven’t been reading stat blocks. Hopefully the fact that many of the enemies in Arcanis are human, or human like, (which is one of the things I like) will mean that many of them suffer from the same limitations. I worry that that might not be the case, since so little consideration seems to have been done in the past with assigning the skill to threats. But applying the same logic, I wouldn’t have thought the Agamassi would have it since they are pretty much the equivalent of a martial type for the Ssressen (accept the elite with advancements that actually bodyguard the emperor of course).

So…idea.

Looking at the ‘perceptive animals’ concepts, maybe the problem is looking at “is perceptive” as a positive state and not a neutral one. For example there are species of flatfish who’s eyes work as a light sensor and not a whit more. They can just differentiate between light on and light off and that’s it. What would that Perception score be, as a straight value? Zero? In the negative numbers?
We’ve got this gigantic pool of “everything is perceptive” which means…what? They all have high bonuses? What about looking at that idea as being baseline zero as in “you’ve got eyesight or hearing capable of registering a gross movement or sound -congratulations, you have a non-penalized Perception score.” Obviously quantifying “gross” in some way would help, but as an abstraction consider that.

Or look at quantifying bonuses differently. Take raptors: do they need a large Perception skill bonus, or would giving them no range increments on vision work better? They can spot a field mouse from a few hundred feet up, but does that mean they see every field mouse every time or that the actual task is one they’re adapted for? Or cats and night vision. Are they actually amazingly perceptive, or do they have a small skill bonus, placing them above the zero baseline value, and low-light vision?

Stealth is another similar example. I have lived many places with Deer. Deer are pretty stealthy -except not. They’re quiet moving, but so is everything walking slowly across a soft lawn as long as it doesn’t crack a stick or two. They don’t make passive noise like jingling car keys in a pocket and they stand real still to blend in, but does that make them Stealthy? Or does that make me Perceptive? Is the difference that my eye is probably more advanced then that of things that they evolved fleeing from so freezing up does nothing, or because I can learn I know what to look for? Tan blob superimposed over a garbage can waaaaay over yonder? Probably a deer. I sure couldn’t hear it coming from a distance, but visually it’s not a trial to spot them coming. Given how much they rely on movement cues, that distant, statue-still buck is virtually a Mastermind White Tail to other deer….but he’s clearly unmoving on a light grey concrete patio to me.

This is the critical difference: animals don’t improve like we do. We lucky, lucky sapient creatures have volition with which to focus on skills. Animal abilities seem to be primarily benchmarks -“bears can detect noise at X range consistently,” and that value doesn’t go up.

Part of the issue is an artifact of the system -I was playing a mod, we were fighting some caster type, I broke through the chaff to confront the caster (he unarmored in robes with a dagger) and Lo! He doth initiated a most vexing ass-whupping!
Oh, right. He’s an Elite. His otherwise casting-focused ass is as good with his butter knife as I am with my greatsword. Probably better -he’s got more Tricks, and overall higher die values at everything because Elite.
Fantastic. Sure it happens to everyone etc etc, but his classification ensures that if we duel in a Perform (Bongos) contest he’ll still have the edge because Elite. Part of it is also my own failing in not having an as-yet clear feeling about where I am in regards to my actual setting-relative potency. I have 3 ranks in Perform (Bongos), am I good?

So if a Shadow Lion is in fact a Mastermind Shadow Lion, he’ll be far beyond his normal racial parameters. It’s a classic D&D problem: APL 1 = ORKS! APL 3 = More ORKS! APL 9 = SUPER ORKS (or) NO MORE ORKS! What, are they all dead? Fled? Or do they have to keep evolving like Pokemon? “We still hear about villages being raided by Orks -why don’t we fight them any more?”
The real problem tends to be, IMXP, that the players want to find a lasting solution to the Ork problem, and the GM maybe kinda wants them to move on because s/he thinks it’s inconsequential or totally beyond their reach.

That was kind of a 4th Ed. problem, too. Ask Val’Holryn about “The Big Man” some time.

Point being: maybe a better starting point is to assign things with generally balanced perceptory suite a starting Perception bonus of zero. You’re a bear. Your hearing and scent traits are excellent, but your eyesight sucks. This does not give you a gigantic inherent bonus because 2 out of 3 ain’t bad, it just means you qualify for starting at nothing and working up from there. Or maybe you get the Scent Quality, and otherwise your Perception bonus is nothing special.

Edit: punctuation, some clarification.

I live out in the country. Here is my perspective of animals and perception. Animals may have special sensory boosts to perception, but most don’t have perception as a natural skill. What is easily confused as perception is really paranoia and lack of trust. It is a skill that is learned for most. Each animal may have special gift in a field, but that is more like how ss’ressens have a bonus to balance checks.

The issue I have with perception is that it is over generalized. It is a single rank to represent a character’s skill in sensing something. That something comes from training. The issue is that there are so many bonuses to that perception vs stealth checks. Being actively attentive invokes the roll, which is right. Choosing to focus on fewer senses should provide a bonus to perception. And then for stealth, the environment and resources to camouflage provides bonuses for each senses.

So much is rolled into perception and stealth, it helps in generalizing, but it is hard to be strategic with stealth when all senses are rolled into one result versus another result. Perception is the detection of a disturbance in the room, not the recognition of the disturbance. It is like an animal responding to a pebble falling off a hill. They may detect it on the silent hill, but it doesn’t know what caused it. The animal is paranoid,forced to make a mettle check. It such case, this creates a strategic use of stealth to force a creature into a trap. Then you have the issue of GMs getting angry that the players are restricting the NPCs’ actions.

This comes to a choice of how perception/stealth mechanic is suppose to be in the game system. If it is intended to be used strategically, it needs to be handled strategically. A list of bonuses to perception and stealth need to be worked out just like attack versus defense and how the quality of the equipment adjusts the outcome. Then, you could add to stealth a mechanic just like etiquette to show experience in different forms of hiding, such as crowds or shadows. When aiming for strategic purposes, you can’t over-generalize perception and stealth.

it all comes down to the kind of game your playing, I’m pretty sure that Arcanis the Roleplaying game is a lot more about fighting bashing people s heads and following intrigue rather than sneaking around in the dark avoiding doing those same things, and the details of the game system play more to those ideas.

No reason stealth and subterfuge can’t play a part in the game as well. There’s an entire god devoted to it and lots of talents that help with it.

John

I live out in the country. Here is my perspective of animals and perception. Animals may have special sensory boosts to perception, but most don’t have perception as a natural skill. What is easily confused as perception is really paranoia and lack of trust. It is a skill that is learned for most. Each animal may have special gift in a field, but that is more like how ss’ressens have a bonus to balance checks.

The issue I have with perception is that it is over generalized. It is a single rank to represent a character’s skill in sensing something. That something comes from training. The issue is that there are so many bonuses to that perception vs stealth checks. Being actively attentive invokes the roll, which is right. Choosing to focus on fewer senses should provide a bonus to perception. And then for stealth, the environment and resources to camouflage provides bonuses for each senses.

So much is rolled into perception and stealth, it helps in generalizing, but it is hard to be strategic with stealth when all senses are rolled into one result versus another result. Perception is the detection of a disturbance in the room, not the recognition of the disturbance. It is like an animal responding to a pebble falling off a hill. They may detect it on the silent hill, but it doesn’t know what caused it. The animal is paranoid,forced to make a mettle check. It such case, this creates a strategic use of stealth to force a creature into a trap. Then you have the issue of GMs getting angry that the players are restricting the NPCs’ actions.

This comes to a choice of how perception/stealth mechanic is suppose to be in the game system. If it is intended to be used strategically, it needs to be handled strategically. A list of bonuses to perception and stealth need to be worked out just like attack versus defense and how the quality of the equipment adjusts the outcome. Then, you could add to stealth a mechanic just like etiquette to show experience in different forms of hiding, such as crowds or shadows. When aiming for strategic purposes, you can’t over-generalize perception and stealth.

While in the abstract, I agree, one skill for perception and one skill for stealth is generalizing a lot, I think it is the way to go. There is always a line to be drawn between “realism” and playability; and when playing a fantasy game with dragons and spells, I tend to lean more towards enhancing playability over “realism” since if you go for realism, where do you draw the line? Pretty soon you’re playing GURPS.

If anything, I think stealth is still to specific and confusing. Most people seem to play it as the complete stealth package, which is how I think it should be for playability. But at times there are break-outs for visual stealth vs. auditory stealth. In the spell, “form of shadow” you get a +2 on stealth in shadowy areas, but then there is an adaptation to give +2 to your stealth when trying to move silently. What? Wasn’t moving silently already built into the stealth role modified earlier? What’s the point of boosting one application of stealth and not another? How many rolls do people get to detect you?

P: “I go to sneak past the creature”
GM: “OK, what’s your stealth – hide”
P: “we’ll I’ve got a spell, and a cloak, and a talent, and I’ve really worked on this, so I’m pretty good – I get ##”
GM: “OK, what’s your stealth – move silent?”
P: “Ummm, well, the cloak probably doesn’t apply, and the spell probably doesn’t. Does the rune? How about the talent? I get ##-6 I guess. Good thing I rolled well”
GM: “OK, now what is your stealth – scent? I mean, we’ve got 5 sense… It’s pretty still in here too so we’ll have to see if he feels the wind of your passage…”
GM: “Oh, and since you’re moving at half movement all these rolls will have to be rolled as you go down the passage toward him, as you pass him, and then once you’re past him going further in.”
P: “Right, so eventually I miss something and fail. Great game”

That’s part of what prompted me to ask this question in the first place actually, that I’ve realized isn’t clearly answered in the rules. How often do people get to make checks? In D&D it was like once a round, and since you had to move slowly to hide, that could quickly lead to so many checks that if you weren’t obscene, you would easily be detected.

I’ve been thinking about the scene of an open, well lit courtyard, trying to sneak past the guards at the main entrance of an important building. Normally, impossible. No cover. But with the “Chameleon” tier III spell, you could actually slowly walk across the courtyard and through the entrance at 10′ per move. That’s what the spell is freakin’ for. So that would mean a long time out in the open. Now I figure in most instances the guards would be martial types and probably wouldn’t have perception as a skill. Plus they’re probably pretty lax since they know it is “impossible” to sneak across the courtyard. Throughout the time you’re slowly sneaking across the courtyard. In previous games every person in site would get a check, someone would get lucky, and you would get killed. I like in this game that you go against their passive perception, so there aren’t a million roles. Just all of yours. Do you roll once for going across the entire courtyard, through the doors, and into the building? Every 10 feet? If it’s every 10 feet, odds are you will eventually biff a role, unless your average roll significantly exceeds their passive perception, just because of the number of roles you have to make. Then you have to factor in sight and move silent (which chameleon apparently doesn’t help with?)?

The other possibility would be to use the adapted version of “shadow form” that dims bright light around you to shadowy, which would give you the ability to hide as you skirt the yard and building (I would think), but then, wouldn’t that shadowy area moving across the courtyard attract some attention? I mean, doesn’t that ability sort of defeat itself?

Just some additional thoughts.