• This topic has 15 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by Anonymous.
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  • #152568
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Pugilist.
    Your unarmed strike now deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. While taking an Attack action you may make an unarmed attack as a bonus action. If you take the Tavern Brawler feat your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage.

    Is this a strait die, or do you still get to add your Strength modifier on an attack action?

    Related, I presume you do NOT get to add your Strength modifier when used as a bonus action (to be consistent with most other bonus actions, such as TWF).

    x-ref:
    On a hit, an unarmed strike deals bludgeoning damage equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. You are proficient with your unarmed strikes.

    #274871
    frootsnax
    Participant

    I would assume yes. You get a d4 plus your strength as a normal action.

    I am less confident of the bonus action. Yes it is true you usually don’t get to add the modifier twice. So that would suggest you wouldn’t’ with your unarmed strike either.

    #274872
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    TWF bonus action specifically does not allow attribute (the nearest comparison).

    #274875
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Actually, in Pugilist, you do get the strength bonus to damage on every attack.

    Other examples, include the monk, who gets the strength or dex bonus to damage on every attack, even those done in a bonus action. In Polearm Mastery, you get the Str bonus to damage on the bonus attack.

    Only in two weapon fighting, do you not get the Str/Dex bonus to damage on the bonus attack. That is probably because for TWF you don’t have to make a specific choice (no feat or class selection required). Anyone can do it.

    #274877
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    \":twisted:\"

    Just solved a character design problem I was having.

    #274883
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I had a question on the pugilist style. If a character with pugilist and tavern brawler wears a cestus, does the character use the 1d6 for tavern brawler, or the 1d4 of the cestus? As a worn weapon, it augments unarmed damage.

    The reason I ask is that the cestus is versatile, and allows you to switch to either piercing or slashing damage.

    (If memory serves, in previous editions, the cestus gave a flat bonus to unarmed damage).

    #274887
    frootsnax
    Participant

    I had a question on the pugilist style. If a character with pugilist and tavern brawler wears a cestus, does the character use the 1d6 for tavern brawler, or the 1d4 of the cestus? As a worn weapon, it augments unarmed damage.

    The reason I ask is that the cestus is versatile, and allows you to switch to either piercing or slashing damage.

    (If memory serves, in previous editions, the cestus gave a flat bonus to unarmed damage).

    I’m no one official but I assume you’d be able to use whichever is most advantageous. In this case a d6 for unarmed that is also versatile (piercing or slashing).

    I have the thought that Feats are a very precious resource.

    If you want to spend a feat to make your unarmed fighting better you shouldn’t get dinged by wearing a cestus. IMO. You given up a +2 increase in Strength, which would have given you +1 to hit and damage in melee (and Athletic checks…). You probably now have a net +1 to damage, and other bennies from Tavern Brawler which mostly helps you grapple (if you worked it out so the +1 to Strength you got from the Feat took you to an even number, congrats on good character planning…). Finally you have a weapon that is is synergetic, but still at the low end of the damage range.

    #274889
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I’ve got a spreadsheet set up to factor damage options. Note this does not account for the benefits of AC or to-hits numbers. Just the average damage if every attack hits.

    Fighter with various Fighting Style options.
    Level	#Att	Cestus	Pugilist	Pugilist+Brawler	Cestus TWF style	Greatsword GWF
    1	1	6	12	14	12	12
    2	1	6	12	14	12	12
    3	1	6	12	14	12	12
    4	1	7	14	16	14	13
    5	2	16	21	24	24	28
    6	2	18	24	27	27	30
    7	2	18	24	27	27	30
    8	2	18	24	27	27	30
    9	2	18	24	27	27	30
    10	2	20	24	27	30	32
    11	3	30	32	36	40	48
    12	3	30	32	36	40	48
    13	3	30	32	36	40	48
    14	3	30	32	36	40	48
    15	3	33	32	36	44	51
    16	3	33	32	36	44	51
    

    Once magical weapons are factored in, TWF with two cestus pulls ahead quickly from 10th level onwards (with +2 weapons). GWF greatsword is ‘top dog’ (as expected) but you can’t use a shield or other defensive style. TWF is right behind (again due to not being able to use a shield).

    Still haven’t played, so don’t have a feel for how important AC vs damage output is.

    I also haven’t factored in martial archetypes (things like improved crit for Champion), which accentuates it further.

    #274933
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    My question is whether a TWF unarmed fighter could take advantage of the new defensive dualist combat style offered in the primer as well as the duel wielder feat, since the second hand is both “completely free” and a weapon.

    From the sounds of it the existing feats are going to get rewritten and styles are going to become chained, so the possibility to do it will last very long. Besides, it is spending both a style and a feat, just so you can get the same advantage as a nonmagical shield, so probably not worth it anyways, power-wise. Not what I consider broken as a design.

    #274934
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    My question is whether a TWF unarmed fighter could take advantage of the new defensive dualist combat style offered in the primer as well as the duel wielder feat, since the second hand is both “completely free” and a weapon.

    From the sounds of it the existing feats are going to get rewritten and styles are going to become chained, so the possibility to do it will last very long. Besides, it is spending both a style and a feat, just so you can get the same advantage as a nonmagical shield, so probably not worth it anyways, power-wise. Not what I consider broken as a design.

    this is an interesting fact if 5e.. unarmed strikes are not “weapons” per say… you would not benefit from either two weapon fighting.

    Your unarmed strike now deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage. While taking an Attack action you may make an unarmed attack as a bonus action. If you take the Tavern Brawler feat your unarmed strikes deal 1d6 damage.

    Note that Pugilist allows you to make an additional attack as a bonus action, it does not say “off hand attack as a bonus action”.. this attack can be a kick or a jab

    you gain your full strength bonus on all your unarmed attacks, even the bonus attack you gain from the Puglist feat.

    you don’t need the two-weapon fighting feat at all.

    #274935
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    My question is whether a TWF unarmed fighter could take advantage of the new defensive dualist combat style offered in the primer as well as the duel wielder feat, since the second hand is both “completely free” and a weapon.

    Pugilist (style) does *not* make your unarmed strike a “weapon”, so couldn’t benefit from Dual Wielder (feat) (or most other TWF style/feat options). An actual weapon is required.

    Defensive Duelist (style) will work if you have an actual weapon in your primary hand (cestus, dagger, gladius etc) and you use Pugilist (style) for the offhand. However, you will need to be a 10th level Fighter (Champion) to get the second style.
    This is an issue for most of the obvious ‘good’ combinations.

    #274936
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    you gain your full strength bonus on all your unarmed attacks, even the bonus attack you gain from the Puglist feat.

    Which does make an interesting variation for greatsword wielders; great weapon fighting (style) or pugilist (style)?
    As Strength builds already, the bonus attack is quite nice at lower levels with a ‘break-even’ point at Fighter 11 (when the 3rd attack arrives). Combine with Champion archetype for bonus fun.

    #274943
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Note that being 10th lvl Champion is not the only way to get a second fighting style. Multiclassing as a Ranger or a Paladin (or possibly a Holy Champion) will also give you one at 2nd lvl of said class.

    #275103
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    So continuing on this vein. If I use a worn weapon to make an attack is that attack considered a melee weapon attack? I ask for the purposes of Divine Smite, which says “when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack.”

    #275105
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Worn ‘weapons’ are still weapons… Note that they do take up a hand (or tail for Ss’ressen).

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