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- July 8, 2015 at 1:20 am #151913AnonymousInactive
The Arcanis RPG has several Rebuke and Ward spells that force a certain type of opponent back. The rules for “Pushing Through” mention that it’s sometimes possible for the warded creatures to overcome the rebuke/ward, but the rules aren’t clear about timing and repeatability of this attempt. This uncertainty has come up in games. If there isn’t a standard ruling, I recommend we develop one.
Relevant spells: Rebuke (ARPG p.355), Rebuke Lesser (ARPG p.415), Ward against the Unnatural (ARPG p.441)
Generalized text of the Rule As Written:
Pushing Through: Normally, an affected entity will do all it can to stay away from the offending , but sometimes blood lust, rage, or pure hatred will allow it to overcome its fear . To attack, the must succeed in a Mettle: Perseverance (Re) Action Skill Roll against the caster’s Passive Arcanum Value.
RULES QUESTIONS:
- Are there any explicit guidelines for creatures that can/will attempt to Push Through? Perhaps based on threat archetype?[/*:m]
- Can a rebuked/warded creature attempt to Push Through the spell only once or multiple times?[/*:m]
- What kind of action (speed-wise) is it to attempt to Push Through a rebuke/ward?[/*:m]
- Is the attempt to Push Through a inherent (0-tick) part of a move action (which is wasted if failed), or is it a separate Action?[/*:m]
- If it’s normally not repeatable or desirable, can a Fate Point allow a threat to try (again)?[/*:m]
There clearly have to be some limits on pushing through, or else if it’s a 0-tick action that’s repeatable, the creature will attempt until it eventually rolls a critical success. Thus, if it’s repeatable, there must be some time associated with the attempt to push through, even if just the move action.
RECOMMENDATION:
To encourage discussion, here’s my rule recommendation based off some experience both as GM and player. I welcome feedback and other rule recommendations from other players and GMs.In general, minions will not attempt to Push Through unless the Chronicler rules that extenuating circumstances lead them to do so, in which case they will generally attempt to Push Through only once. Common threats will typically attempt only once to Push Through unless the Chronicler rules that circumstances lead them to stay away or attempt repeatedly. Elite and Adversary threats will typically attempt repeatedly to Push Through unless the Chronicler rules that they have reason not to do so. Other options in combat and the creature’s mindset and motivation will affect whether a creature attempts to Push Through. Heroes (i.e., Player Characters) may attempt to Push Through as much as a player desires.
If a creature succeeds on Pushing Through, it is a Simple (Speed +2) Action to do so. If a creature fails to Push Through, it is a Complex (Speed 4) Action to make the attempt and realize it has failed.July 8, 2015 at 1:25 am #268920AnonymousInactiveAnother relevant discussion on the PCI Forum:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=377July 8, 2015 at 1:25 am #268921AnonymousInactiveRULES QUESTIONS:
- Are there any explicit guidelines for creatures that can/will attempt to Push Through? Perhaps based on threat archetype?[/*:m]
- Can a rebuked/warded creature attempt to Push Through the spell only once or multiple times?[/*:m]
- What kind of action (speed-wise) is it to attempt to Push Through a rebuke/ward?[/*:m]
- Is the attempt to Push Through a inherent (0-tick) part of a move action (which is wasted if failed), or is it a separate Action?[/*:m]
- If it’s normally not repeatable or desirable, can a Fate Point allow a threat to try (again)?[/*:m]
1. any creature at any time
2. any number of times
3. part of a movement (attempting to enter the warded area); speed 3 or 4 depending on situation. Shifting alone won’t work, as a Shift must be part of another action.July 8, 2015 at 4:22 am #268922AnonymousInactiveI dislike any rule stating ‘this type of creature will act like this’, as it should be up to the GM to decide when it is appropriate for a creature to attempt to force through a ward. It is a good idea to get an official clarification on the type of action required to do so, but otherwise I don’t see an issue with the rules as written. Any enemy should be able to attempt to force their way through any ward any number of times, if suitably motivated. As has been suggested, I think it should be part of a movement action.
July 8, 2015 at 4:49 am #268923frootsnaxParticipantThree quick pennies:
(A) WHEN TO PUSH THROUGH?
As a judge I look for alternatives to pushing through (including leaving). Sometimes that’s appropriate. Sometimes that isn’t.In the Jappa BI there is a tunnel fight and PCs are trying to stop infernals (mostly minions) from pouring through. Many tables have rebuked or raised wards. IMO ALL the infernals try to push through in those circumstances. They have to get through…
On the other hand that wouldn’t be true in a fight where “the monsters” are summoned and there are other targets outside the area.
So its case specific. IMO the status of “minion” or “adversary” is largely irrelevant.
(B) HOW DO THEY PUSH THROUGH?
I always do it as part of a move action or charge. If they don’t get through then the movement ends at the barriers edge and you move the creature’s clock accordingly.(C) DOESN’T THAT MEAN THEY GET THROUGH “EVENTUALLY?”
IMO Yes. A ward is comparatively a hasty thing and not on the same scale as some kind of permanent metaphysical feature. IMO permanently blocking access “to an area” vs “infernals” (or other creature type) is on par with crafting a magical item … that is to say something currently beyond the abilities of PCs.July 8, 2015 at 2:04 pm #268924AnonymousInactiveRemember this about Rebuke:
Rebuke
Range: 10’ Radius – This is NOT 0′, Self, or Melee and therefore grants a Free Strike
Effect:
All creatures affected by the spell’s initial casting must
move to the edge of the effect. For as long as the spell is active,
the affected creatures will not enter the spell’s radius.
Sustained Effect: Creatures affected must remain outside of
the spell’s area.
Pushing Through: Normally, an effected entity will do all it
can to stay away from the offending priest, but sometimes
blood lust, rage, or pure hatred will allow it to overcome its
fear. To attack, the Undead must succeed in a Mettle: Perseverance
(Re) Action Skill Roll against the caster’s Passive
Arcanum Value.Leaving aside the inconsistency of affected vs. effected. . .
Because this spell has a range of 10′, it provokes Free Strikes, and ONLY those creatures in the initial casting are effected. If you have an infernal 15′ away, it is not subject to the Rebuke Spell and can pass into the warded area with no trouble.
July 8, 2015 at 2:26 pm #268925frootsnaxParticipanthmmm…never had the issue of free strikes come up. The origin of the radius is 0′ (ie. the caster). Doesn’t that mean the spell does not provoke? Seems odd that rebuking (which mimics the D&D cleric’s turning) should provoke.
The second part I’m in complete agreement about.
July 8, 2015 at 2:27 pm #268926AnonymousInactiveThe range is not listed as 0′(10′ Radius), it is listed as just 10′ radius which means it provokes.
July 8, 2015 at 2:49 pm #268927AnonymousInactiveThe range is not listed as 0′(10′ Radius), it is listed as just 10′ radius which means it provokes.
Are you sure? I thought neither “0′ (10′ Radius)” nor “10′ Radius” provoked (both being 0′ range).
I’d love to see the spell ranges cleaned up. There are way too many slight variations (“0′ (10′ Radius)”, “10′ Radius’, “Self (10′ Radius)”, etc).
July 8, 2015 at 4:34 pm #268928AnonymousInactiveThe range is not listed as 0′(10′ Radius), it is listed as just 10′ radius which means it provokes.
Are you sure? I thought neither “0′ (10′ Radius)” nor “10′ Radius” provoked (both being 0′ range).
I’d love to see the spell ranges cleaned up. There are way too many slight variations (“0′ (10′ Radius)”, “10′ Radius’, “Self (10′ Radius)”, etc).
To quote the book on page 349
Any spell with a Range of 0’, Self, or Melee does
not grant a free strike.By these rules, Rebuke provokes.
July 8, 2015 at 4:41 pm #268929AnonymousInactiveI’d love to see the spell ranges cleaned up. There are way too many slight variations (“0′ (10′ Radius)”, “10′ Radius”, “Self (10′ Radius)”, etc).
A spell with range “0′ (10′ Radius)” has the potential to be extended (via adaptations, either unique to the spell or the Talent Adaptation: Extended Range) to longer range for the center of the circle, whereas “Self (10′ Radius)” cannot. “10′ Radius” is simply vague and should probably always be one of the other two.I agree that spell ranges are inconsistently specified across spells. An expert on the rules should edit the spell ranges–and all spell details & descriptions for that matter.
July 8, 2015 at 4:49 pm #268930AnonymousInactiveONLY those creatures in the initial casting are effected. If you have an infernal 15′ away, it is not subject to the Rebuke Spell and can pass into the warded area with no trouble.
The spell description’s wording of “the affected creatures will not enter the spell’s radius” is vague. Does “affected creatures” mean all Undead, Shades, Spirits, or Infernals? Or does it mean just those creatures affected by the initial casting? I interpret it as the former but can see a point being made for the later based on the spell’s wording. Even aside from comparisons with D&D Turning, I feel that the spirit of the rule is that it can keep the unnatural creatures away even if they had not been in the initial 10′ radius around the caster.BTW, since there is another spell Rebuke Lesser in the game, I recommend that a better name for this spell would be Rebuke the Unnatural to be in parallel with the other Rebuke and also the spell Ward against the Unnatural.
July 8, 2015 at 4:50 pm #268931AnonymousInactiveRemember this about Rebuke:
Rebuke
Range: 10’ Radius – This is NOT 0′, Self, or Melee and therefore grants a Free Strike
Effect:
All creatures affected by the spell’s initial casting must
move to the edge of the effect. For as long as the spell is active,
the affected creatures will not enter the spell’s radius.
Sustained Effect: Creatures affected must remain outside of
the spell’s area.
Pushing Through: Normally, an effected entity will do all it
can to stay away from the offending priest, but sometimes
blood lust, rage, or pure hatred will allow it to overcome its
fear. To attack, the Undead must succeed in a Mettle: Perseverance
(Re) Action Skill Roll against the caster’s Passive
Arcanum Value.Leaving aside the inconsistency of affected vs. effected. . .
Because this spell has a range of 10′, it provokes Free Strikes, and ONLY those creatures in the initial casting are effected. If you have an infernal 15′ away, it is not subject to the Rebuke Spell and can pass into the warded area with no trouble.
I 100% disagree with the 2nd part of this. While it’s probably poor wording in the spell, I can’t imagine the intent of this spell is that it only affects those creatures already within 10′ of the caster at the time of casting. I believe the first line was meant to say “If there are any creatures of the specified type (infernals, etc) within the range at the time of casting, they are moved to the edge.” Thereafter, any creature of the specified type (The word ‘affected’ is used here) that tries to approach must push past the ward.
I would (as GM) not enforce the “only affects creatures within 10′ at the time of casting” as I don’t think that was the intent of the spell’s author (Unless I hear otherwise)
John
July 8, 2015 at 4:55 pm #268933AnonymousInactiveWell, until it is changed in an errata, the spell only works against creatures who were within 10′ of the caster at time of casting, with all others being able to freely pass through. Hell, I followed the (thus far) popular opinion until I had the wording explained to me at a Con and to me it seems quite clear that the intention is as per my first paragraph (going so far to confirm it later in the description to say ‘ffected entity’)
July 8, 2015 at 5:04 pm #268934frootsnaxParticipantI think it only works on the “things on top of you.” More things show up? I think you have to recast.
That’s part of why I don’t think the spell provokes attacks. It only works at immediate range. I am guessing that the range listed is “some kind of typo” and should instead read: self (10′ radius).
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