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- December 5, 2013 at 5:25 am #150359AnonymousInactive
Martial Characters are given proficiency in all Native armor and shields. Armor Proficiency: Sheilds (ta) seems to cover all shields the way it is written in the book. So if am Martial Character from a nation that only has Light Shields listed does he have to take Armor Proficiency: Shields (Heavy) to use one?
December 5, 2013 at 9:43 am #252789frootsnaxParticipantWithout penalties? Yes.
December 9, 2013 at 3:35 pm #252957AnonymousInactiveWhy is that? As MaurLysander points out, there is only a single shield proficiency talent. If a character is proficient with any shields, they are proficient with all shields.
December 9, 2013 at 3:41 pm #252959AnonymousInactiveFor the same reason Weapon Proficiency (All Coryani weapons) doesn’t give you weapon proficiency with the Kio Sword. If it says “all national” it means all national.
December 9, 2013 at 3:46 pm #252960AnonymousInactiveBut they are not equivalent:
Weapon Training – “choose a weapon, unarmed, or natural weapons …”
Shield Proficiency – “you may now utilize shields without penalty”Weapon training is explicitly per weapon while Shield Proficiency is explicitly all shields.
December 9, 2013 at 3:49 pm #252961AnonymousInactiveand so is armor proficiency, but you still only get the things listed in the national section for weapons armors and shields
December 9, 2013 at 3:52 pm #252964drafitParticipantThe reason is that learning how to use a buckler or a medium shield is not the same as using a Tower shield, like the Coryani legions do.
A “one skill fits all mentality” is wrong in this case.
If you want your Milandisian Hero to know how to use a Tower Shield, then he/she will have to spend the skill points to do so.
December 9, 2013 at 3:56 pm #252965AnonymousInactiveI would suggest adding this to the FAQ. This is obviously not clear to multiple people. Weapon Training is explicitly per weapon. Armor Proficiency is explicitly a small number of armors (the choice is just pre-done for starting proficiency based on Archetype and Nationality (which could grant you more or less than pLo)). Shield Proficiency is explicitly all shields so I had always read it as always being all shields (even starting proficiency).
My main does not use shields so it’s not an issue. My secondary does use tower shield so I may have to rebuild him (as I’m pretty sure he’s Milandisian and did not spend the extra talent for it).
December 9, 2013 at 3:58 pm #252966AnonymousInactiveIs it true though that taking Armor Proficiency: Shield gives you training in ALL shields as written?
John
December 9, 2013 at 4:01 pm #252967AnonymousInactiveYes. From ARPG (Benefit entry):
You may now utilize shields without penalty. You may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you acquired Weapon Training (pg. 212) with all shields.
Nowhere in the talent does it say anything about choosing shields or limiting shields in any way.
December 9, 2013 at 4:05 pm #252969AnonymousInactiveYes. From ARPG (Benefit entry):
You may now utilize shields without penalty. You may also start to acquire shield Weapon Tricks as if you acquired Weapon Training (pg. 212) with all shields.
Nowhere in the talent does it say anything about choosing shields or limiting shields in any way.
I was just verifying with Henry about this. His statements could be read that even the Proficiency should to be taken for each shield individually.
John
December 9, 2013 at 4:06 pm #252970drafitParticipantAu contraie, Mssr. :
If you use a shield with which you are not proficient, you gain a single point of AR which
stacks with armor, but gain no other benefits from the shield; you also suffer double the shields SB to all attack rolls and all Physical action skill rolls.Meaning that you must be proficient in the shield (ala’ a skill) to get the full benefit.
You know, when the Non-Rules – Story only guy can pick this out fairly easily, I’m surprised that you rules guys can’t.
December 9, 2013 at 4:16 pm #252973AnonymousInactiveThe Armour Proficiency (Shield) Talent grants weapon proficiency with all shields in terms of rules, as well as allow you to use them for Avoidance instead of simple AR, and providing you less of a SB. However, you are NOT granted Armour Proficiency (Shield) with a Martial Archetype. Instead, you are granted “You gain Armor Proficiency in ALL armor and shields common to your starting nation.” This means if you are from the Coryani Empire, you gain Shield Proficiency ONLY in the Small Shield and Tower Shield. If the Martial Archetype said “You gain Armour Proficiency (Shield)” then there would be no question, but it does not.
You can get proficiency with all shields if you take the talent, but otherwise you only get a limited selection. This would be the equivalent of Nierites gaining Armour Proficiency (Heavy), but not Armour Proficiency (Light) or (Medium), even though those are typically prerequisites for (Heavy). However, it does not say you get those, so you only get what is listed.
December 9, 2013 at 4:23 pm #252974AnonymousInactiveNierite, that may be the intent but it is very unclear from the book. Everything else grants talents directly (ignoring prereqs sometimes or assigning specific choices but still talents) so it’s logical that Archetype proficiencies would be the same. If they are not, this needs to be called out in a more explicit way (hence my earlier comment that this should go in the FAQ). Fortunately, Shield Proficiency is the only confusing one (because the talent grants all shield proficiencies instead of only one or a very few) – to me anyway.
Henry, what shield skill? Melee (Unbalanced) is required to use shields as weapons (and, like the Proficiency talent, that one skill covers all shields) but I don’t see a skill anywhere for using shields defensively.
December 9, 2013 at 4:28 pm #252975drafitParticipantI misspoke (mis-wrote) – I meant proficiency.
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