Stacking Assists

Either we should be able to hit a MOB with our own attack reasonably well, Or be able to hit by cooperation. But writing encouters with Avoidance 32 and no effective way to hit Advoidance 32 religates the story to a slug fest.I can agree with this whole heartedly. Which encounter are you talking about?

I was thinking of the Serpent Encounter in Price of Honor. But I went back and checked the stat blocks. The Avoidance isn’t nearly has high as I remembered. It was the FORT defence that was that high. Then only at High Tier. So I retract my statement about avoidances being too high. My appologies. It only seamed like a slug fest at the time. But in hindsight we had a table with fast weapons and that AR is a killer.

I would point out that a Tier 2.5 PC can have a avoidance base vaule of 35 if they have a 8 PR and 8 IN, take +2 to all stats at every level, and also take +1 to Avoidance every level, have a towershield or scutum, and have Masterful Defese. But they are paying a price for that in reduced abilities and advancement options. Plus, the +4 from the shield is avoidable with weapon tricks such as Bypass the Shield or Render Shield Worthless, or the shield is disarmed.

That said, I think that if an ally cast a Benediction of the Gods of Nier (+1 on all prowess actions), an ally used Distract Opponent talent, and an ally used assist ally to help you hit someone; none of those would stack because they are all from the ally source.

Benediction is a Spell Bonus
Distract Opponent is a Talent Bonus
Asset Ally is an Ally Bonus

All 3 should stack.

How does that sync with the Errata pg 12, where it pretty clearly says,

“Allies (as in all Allies, not each Ally) are
considered their own source, regardless of where the
bonus comes from a talent or a spell. If two allies grant
you a static (+X) bonus to hit, the highest bonus wins
out, and if two Allies grant you a Die Bump to the same
Attribute, they also do not stack. There is an exception
to this; you cannot stack the effects of the same spell
or talent, even granted to you by an ally.”

That makes things pretty strict. But it would help me to understand if you had some examples for your interpretation. Do you mind providing some?
EDIT: I note that is states STATIC BONUS, not Dymanic Bonus. Assist Ally and Distract Opponent are Dynamic Bonuses because they apply to a single attack.

I listed above my interpretation, that assist ally, distract opponent, and benediction wouldn’t stack. I think the difference here between Static and Dynamic in the way that you mean (one attack vs. many) doesn’t apply. The wording of the errata defines static, saying, “There are three bonus types: Static (a fixed bonus such as a +1 or a +2), Die (such as adding a d6 or a d8) and Die
Bump (increasing a die type to the next largest die.)” So static here just means any +X, so static vs dynamic SOURCE doesn’t matter, if both apply a static bonus TYPE. So Assist Ally and Distract Opponent would not stack since they both give a +X to hit.

That errata ruling is problematic. If a spell cast by an Ally is now an Ally bonus instead of a Spell Bonus (or Talent Bonus), then Benediction of the Gods cast by an Ally would be able to stack with another spell the ‘target character’ casts offering that same bonus since they are now different types. If the errata is meant to just limit even further bonuses by saying anything an Ally does is considered BOTH an Ally and Spell/Talent Bonus, then it’s just unnecessarily restrictive.

John

I think I agree. So, for example, I think I could cast Conviction on myself to give a bonus to my disciple (source spell), and an ally Illiirite could cast the Illiirite version of Benediction of the Gods (source ally) to give me an additional conviction bonus and they would stack – different spells and difference “sources” per the rules – but, if another ally had any other ability (skill, talent, spell, etc) to increase my discipline as well, that would not stack with the Benediction, since I already have an “ally” source bonus.

My opinion:

The errata is just wrong when it comes to spells. At any table I judge you will not be able to cast Benediction of the Gods (or inertial shield) to get a bonus to your avoidance & then gain another bonus to your avoidance from another spell cast by an ally claiming “its an ally bonus.” I think this like the time Pedro tried to suggest that you could stack a talent that gave you +(passive In) with another talent that gave you a flat bonus (or a talent that gave you +(passive Anything else). I believe Pedro generally likes letting things stack. But he walked back from that ruling when it became apparent in discussion how ridiculous the stacking process would become (especially played out over and over again in Spells, Talents, etc etc). I believe the errata will be corrected regarding spells and stacking.

The quoted errata makes me think though that distract opponent and aid another doesn’t work together because they both come from an ally. It seems designed to restrict combinations.

Talents would have to work the same. Either Talent bonuses are Talent bonuses regardless of whether you provide it or an ally provides it, or the bonus is an Ally bonus and this would stack. For instance if I have a talent that gives me a +2 to Prowess rolls and an Ally uses a Talent to give me a +1 to Prowess rolls, either they stack because one is Ally Bonus and one is Talent, or they don’t because they are both Talent bonuses (and thus not an Ally bonus).

I think the Ally bonus is supposed to prevent multiple allies from taking a general non-sourced action to give you multiple bonuses to the same thing.

John

John

With the potential reading of this errata as you interpret, I worry about complexity. For instance, my character often uses both Exploit Weakness (and intends to use Insoirational Performance). Those both give static bonuses from talents. It makes sense to me that as Talent Bonuses,mthey won’t stack with other Talent bonuses, and that’s easy enough to find out for a character/player before using the bonus on them (or letting characters know ahead of time it won’t work with something they have). However, if it’s an Ally Bonus, going forward their application of the bonus is dependent upon what spells they are under from allies, as well as any combat actions such as assist ally they are now receiving. That seems overly complicated and will slow down combat more than it is now.

John

The thing to keep in mind is that “doesn’t stack” doesn’t mean it’s worthless. The Bonus granted to a specialized character helping others just needs to be higher than what can be gained by the other character. So if as a warrior I always have +1 to hit from a talent, the “help others talent” used by the buffer should be +2 and then there’s still a net benefit to the characters.

John

Benediction is a Spell Bonus
Distract Opponent is a ALLY Bonus
Asset Ally is an Ally Bonus

All 3 should stack.

John
Talents from allies count as an ally bonus John. Your ally’s Distract Opponent stacks with your talents.