veneration of Jeggal Sag – What church does this belong to

Good question.

Jeggal Sag is part of the Ssethric Pantheon, BUT Black Talon (or other ssethric characters that accept the Fire Dragon) do not see the shamans of Jeggal Sag as heretical.

More to the point, Jeggal Sag is not considered a god, but a divine being, similar to a venerated spirit of the Woods, (but a notch higher in the divine hierarchy), which is why those who are its adherents are shamans and not priests/holy champions.

As you know, I’m not a big rules guy, so IF smite infidel works on shamans, then I it would work on Disciples of J.S., pursuant to the caveat noted above.

So maybe the best was to go would be that if the person casting the spell was a S’sressen follower of the fire dragon then it would not work as they consider Jeggal Sag to be part of their religion but coming from a caster that is Milandir orthodoxy them it would work.

Yes. This is how I think it works.

The Shaman of the Fire Dragon would also protected from smiting-type spells of priests of Kassegore and Yig. But not the Varn. Nor the Milandesian Orthodox Church…which despite the political chicanery of Sabinius probably has some priests who have twigged to the fact that despite the “political truths” of their superiors, followers of the Fire Dragon and Jeggal Sagg suffer effects of spells – as if they are heretics.

::waves hand like a jedi:: I’m sure nothing bad could ever come from that!…

Clerics of Anshar… now we are getting complicated. The Branch of the Mother Church probably does still smite them. But the Branch in Abessios that knows Anshar is Yig probably doesn’t. My opinion.

All of this flirts with the idea that smiting is a solipsistic exercise, which I happen to hate.

*If* I was running a home campaign, as a matter of personal preference & aesthetics, I would base smiting on the basis of Church formation. Ssethric vs Varn vs Eloran vs Myrantian vs Devil Cultists is all pretty straight forward. But the Mother Church and the Dark Triumverate and the Milandesian Orthodox Church all run off of the “theology” & cants of the First Convocation of the Divine (at the Dawn of the Coryani Empire). There a unified theology was re-established after centuries of Dark Ages. In a home campaign, I would not let Milandesians and Coryani and Cancerimen smite each other as a result. I do think the Kalindrul has a separate origin and formation (from the end of the First imperium and the teachings of the Dreams of Larissa). And so too the few remaining val’Vasik priests of Bastion whose Illirite Temple was founded by the separate teachings of Xabal. The fully Pantheonistic approach of the First imperium would also be separate in my view from all the above. All just my opinion…if I was ever running a home campaign.

No. The Fire Dragon & Jeggal Sagg are part of the old Ssethric pantheon. That is true whether you worship them in the swamps next to Altheria or the swamps within Milandir. A King or Priest cannot change the “celestial order” with a decree. But politically they can confuse the issue.

In Milandir there is a broad political belief (fiction!) that the Fire Dragon is Nier. Some in the Mother Church articulated this and Sabinius promoted it upon becoming Primarch. I strongly suspect Sabinius knew better, but found it politically convenient to assert it as true. Those human Milandesians who care about the faith of the Black Talons probably believe it. But at least some “adventurers” and/or ex-Crusaders have to know the answer as far as smite spells (or the spell channeling) go … that they (the BT) are outsiders.

FYI. The spell-casting priestesses of the Fire Dragon definitely know better (they know that the Fire Dragon IS Kassegore). Politically they seem to have decided that it’s not in their interest to fight the M.O.C. on this issue.

Jeggal Sag is a primal/shamanistic power, and by definition, outside the Pantheon of Man. I don’t think many humans have even heard of Jeggal Sag. At a guess, I would guess upon hearing of J.S., that they would either believe that the Beastlord is the B.T. version of Saluwe,..or a lesser power that might be tolerated if people don’t care about the Ss’ressen souls. Or if they do care, its should maybe be challenged and/or stamped out.

Also remember: Game rules cannot always reflect in-universe metaphysics. Game rules need solid “yes/no” rules, while in universe (like if this were in a novel) you could add more exceptions to the rules.

I believe an old discussion of these brought up the idea that it isn’t the SPELL which makes the value judgment about who is and isn’t a heretic, it is the caster. They simply use the spell to channel their own value judgment into physical damage. For example, I doubt that the GODS care about the subtle nuance between a Hurrianite who worships in the Milandisian Orthodox Church or the Mother Church of Coryan. They are still getting worshipped in one of their many forms. It is the PRIEST or the follower who cares about these heresies, and it is their own value judgment of the other worshiper which fuels their spell. All the spell does is give their holy rage form.

Now, for Jeggal Sag, assuming my above statement is true, as long as the ssethric in question doesn’t view their worship as heretical, then the spell has no basis. A Black Talon who views the worship of Jeggal Sag as part of the cosmic order would not be able to smite a follower of Jeggal Sag because fundmentally their heart isn’t in it. Now, if you had a Black Talon who views Jeggal Sag as a false god, then they would probably be able to smite them, but at that point they have diverted from the main-line Black Talon society, so they could similarly be smited by their own kin who view them as having fallen into heresy.

Now, rules-wise, we will usually say that regardless of the character’s class, if you are an active member of a church you are not subject to smites. In theory you can be a shaman who faithfully believes in the gods and made an arcane bargain with a spirit. Now, most spirits (and infernals) will broach no competition in their worship/veneration, so part of the arcane pact they make would probably downplay the holiness of the Gods, which means that the person doesn’t venerate them properly, which means they are heretics, etc. As such, as a general rule of thumb shamans are often appropriate targets for Smite spells since these bargains they make fundamentally would put them into a position of falling to heresy. This is doubly true of the Pantheon of Man, the Mother Church and Milandisians specifically, who view even the use of magic outside of divine sources as potential heresy.

Also remember: Game rules cannot always reflect in-universe metaphysics. Game rules need solid “yes/no” rules, while in universe (like if this were in a novel) you could add more exceptions to the rules.It is true that games rules do not always reflect the in-universe metaphysics. But I actually think this is pretty cut and dry. If the function of smiting is solipsistic … I think you are a pagan/heretic so i can smite you…then the game could explicitly say so and we can move on. TMK Henry has repeatedly rejected this stance, which make me happy because “aesthetically” I loath that idea. But occasionally I tear my hair out because the Church divisions promulgated by the campaign for the spells are not sufficiently discrete from the political statements made by various NPC authorities (who can change the laws & politics of the land but not “the celestial order”). No where has the campaign been murkier on this score than the Milandesian Orthodox Church.

I believe an old discussion of these brought up the idea that it isn’t the SPELL which makes the value judgment about who is and isn’t a heretic, it is the caster. …snip… All the spell does is give their holy rage form. People have posited that idea. TMK its never been conformed by Henry or the campaign staff. Though I agree with most of Cody’s ideas, this is one that I strongly disagree with. There were plenty of modules in the old campaign where my paladin Jaeger was stopped from smiting the *poop* out of an evil Inquisitor/priest who was involved in nefarious-to-heretiical activities. Sometimes by the judge. Sometimes by the mod. The casters perception has not been enough to smite. My experience and long standing opinion.

Now, rules-wise, we will usually say that regardless of the character’s class, if you are an active member of a church you are not subject to smites. In theory you can be a shaman who faithfully believes in the gods and made an arcane bargain with a spirit.Can you? The Ssethric Pantheon includes Jeggal Sagg, who blurs the line between god and spirit. And he may be the child of Kassegore and Yig. I do not believe a Disciple of JS can be smote by Priests of Yig and Kassegore. BUT the PoM is a jealous bunch. Regardless of what a shaman believes I think it’s very likely that THEY do not condone the worship or bargaining with spirits. They don’t want THIER souls slipping away or being contaminated.

I want to be careful here. I do not want to tell other people “how to play their characters.” Everyone hates that. So explicitly let me say that your character can believe whatever you want them too. But I do not think Jeggal Sag is widely regarded as part of the Milandesian Orthodox Church by either side of the human/black talon split in Milandir. I don’t think a shaman of Jeggal Sag or Priestesses of the Fire Dragon would teach that. And I don’t believe the human priests of the Pantheon would teach that. Mostly I think a human Milandesian would say…Jeggal who? I think a Black Talon who DID believe that Jeggal Sag was integrated into the Milandesian Church … has ventured WAAAAY out into his or her own personal spiritual theology & territory. And faces disagreement or even possible censure from other Disciples. (I think the conversation might devolve rapidly to something like, “Don’t you know that it was THIER Valinor that put Jeggal Sag in the mound?!?”)

As such, as a general rule of thumb, shamans are often appropriate targets for Smite spells since these bargains they make fundamentally would put them into a position of falling to heresy. This is doubly true of the Pantheon of Man…. Ooopps. Never mind much of the above. Despite disagreeing on how smite spells should work, we seem to have ended up in the same head space on this issue.

Well…what about the ssethrics?

The Varn are obviously different. Smite away.

The Black Talon “Fire Dragon” (shhh…don’t tell anyone!) IS Kassegore! Their priests use the SAME cants as the Emerald Scale clutch and other followers of the Old Faith …. in that sense the fire Dragon is just a special “ad campaign” or “branding” game. I don’t don’t know if these Ssethrics can smite each other. I agree this is a gray area. Is the difference between Kas in his aspect as the Great Devourer and his aspect as the Honorable Fire Dragon enough to smite? I personally lean no … but that’s just my take. Would love to know what Henry or even the members of BEAST think.

BUT WAIT! The Ashen Hide Ss’ressen also worship the “Fire Dragon,” but they believe the F.D is Nier! And the new version of Coils seems to say that they are now being taught Cancereese cants by Nieirites. Even though they both think they are worshipping the God … I am almost certain they can and do smite each other.

It would be soooo much easier if your PC would just give up on Jeggal Sagg and do the reasonable thing and start worshipping Tzizhet! (You would definitely get a cleaner answer of who can smite you!)

…snip…But if you are human and you worship Illir as a Coryani you can get smote by a cleric of Illir from the Milandir Orthodoxy, even though you both worship the same god and use the same cants. Kassagore / Fire-dragon is a step further apart in my opinion….

Yes you are absolutely right, and its a strong argument in your favor. But at least in this case, the MOC has adjusted their theology to “demote” Neroth, Nier & Sarish. (PS – good luck arguing that when you face the Judgement of Nier) TMK the Emerald Scales and Black talons embrace the same “Cosmology.” Does that make a difference? I don’t know. I think maybe yes. I am also biased on this question. My preference would be for the Mother Church and the Milandesian orthodox Church to NOT be allowed to smite each other… but you are correct that the rules clearly go the other way.