Character options

[EDIT]

Okay, so my general thoughts are: If you’re going to offer some really cool ability, make sure it’s counter balanced by equally desirable, but different cool abilities. Otherwise, that ability will become a ‘must have’.

Huge is a good example of an ‘unbalanced talent’. There’s practically no downside and for any character that fits the requirements and wants to be a melee fighter, there’s NO reason not to take it. It gives you a stat boost, an extra 1-2 points of damage on average hits, and lets you dual wield weapons that make dual wielding shine.

There’s no “Dexterous Fighter” equivalent, or any real cost to the talent.

Continued Training was like this. It could have been fixed with a small change and then it would have been balanced. As it was written, it was a ‘must have’ talent for any Arcane, Divine, or Martial.

John

With that said, looking at this and at the conversations on the boards about warrior/casters, I have some concern about power creep. Right now, you have casters (arcane and divine), you have warriors and you have experts. Experts are skill monkeys, but can also blur the lines between casters and warriors. As more and more players push for improvements to the warrior-caster trope, I worry that if those options are implemented, you will soon see a huge influx of experts, since they will be able to be both top-notch casters and top-notch warriors. They should be at least one step behind in both categories. Make too many options and you’ll lose the reasons that Martial, Arcane and Divine archetypes exist. (Because Experts can make better use of “options” than other archetypes. They get more advancement choices that can utilize the available options.) Why play a martial archetype when you can play an expert who is just as good who can also cast well? Why play an arcane archetype when you can play an expert who is just as good who can also fight well? And in both cases, the expert can advance skills better than the arcane or martial. Too many options will ruin the balance.

I wanted to create a new thread for discussion…

A few points from me and for discussion:

1) Arcanis has Flexible Character Generation. I view this was you can be the ‘same’ concept (fighter/mage) but come at it from many directions.
– If you want to primarily be a caster with a few martial options thrown in, take Arcane Archetype with a Martial Background. This character gets full casting (all Universal spells) without spending any talents and likely gets some combat skills/talents through their background. Their advancement is primarily casting but can choose some skill/combat talents with the general advancement options
– If you want to primarily be a fighter with a few spell options thrown in, take Martial Archetype with a Caster Background (This is the one I’m trying to fix since this isn’t possible for anyone but Vals or Shaman and Divine Casting). This character gets full martial capabilities (armor, weapons, shield proficiencies) without spending any talents, and gets some skill/arcane *potential* through backgrounds (No background offers casting, just unlocks the ability to choose casting). Their advancement is primarily combat related, but can choose some skill/arcane/divine talents with the general advancement options
– If you want a little bit of everything but not as great at either one, take Expert Archetype with a Martial or Caster Background. THis character gets a lot of skill talents/skills and gets some combat help or arcane *potential* through their background. Their advancements are primarily skill based, but can augment with a few arcane/divine/martial talents through the general advancement options.

2) Differences between Archetypes are going to be around “Options” and not “Power Level”. With the general advancement option of “Any 2 Talents”, any Archetype can ‘dip’ into another archetype’s power and get it at the same power level. A Martial who learns a spell casts it with the same ‘power’ as an Arcane character. However, they may not have the skill or talents to adapt it for the variety of situations an Arcane character can. Likewise, an Arcane character can learn a martial technique but won’t have the skills/talents to create many Advanced maneuvers with it. An Expert can learn either but again will not have the Talents (though might have the skills) to really make ultimate use of adaptations.

If folks aren’t taking Adaptation Talents or other Martial Technique Talents, that’s a problem with what’s offered rather than a problem with other archetypes being able to do what someone does.

Example: An Expert might be able to swing the sword at the same (or slightly less) skill bonus as the Martial, but they won’t have all the options of heavy armor/advanced maneuvers/combat talents the Martial does without *heavy* investment and sacrifice of their skill role.

3) Skill Advancements for Arcane/Divine need changed. I contend Expert is chosen more often because of it’s Advancements than because of what it starts with. If Arcane/Divine had their skill advancement changed to “Advance 1 Rank in a number of Trained Skills equal to 3 + Passive Logic to be chosen from Deceit, Stealth, Arcanum, and any Lore Skill” (Religion, Deity Skill, Arcanum and any Social Skill” I think you’d see more of them. That offers flexibility within the archetype constraints but doesn’t force a bad decision or end up with wasted skills.

4) Continued Training. I would like to see this errated to what it was meant to be “Add background skills to your Archetype List” without giving free ranks. Then I’d like to see an Expert version that says “You may change the 2 Skill Talent option to be 1 Skill Talent and 1 Skill/Combat/Arcane/Devout Talent”. Once that choice is made, it cannot be changed.

3) Skill Advancements for Arcane/Divine need changed. I contend Expert is chosen more often because of it’s Advancements than because of what it starts with. If Arcane/Divine had their skill advancement changed to “Advance 1 Rank in a number of Trained Skills equal to 3 + Passive Logic to be chosen from Deceit, Stealth, Arcanum, and any Lore Skill” (Religion, Deity Skill, Arcanum and any Social Skill” I think you’d see more of them. That offers flexibility within the archetype constraints but doesn’t force a bad decision or end up with wasted skills.

Funny, I am in complete agreement with you on this ( i just made that same suggestion in another thread)

4) Continued Training. I would like to see this errated to what it was meant to be “Add background skills to your Archetype List” without giving free ranks. Then I’d like to see an Expert version that says “You may change the 2 Skill Talent option to be 1 Skill Talent and 1 Skill/Combat/Arcane/Devout Talent”. Once that choice is made, it cannot be changed.
I’m sorry, but can’t allow you to take Arcanum, Melee, or Ranged. I’m not even talking double dipping so you gain an 4 rank a tier, you would see a mass exodus from the expert Archetype for Combat Casters.

4) Continued Training. I would like to see this errated to what it was meant to be “Add background skills to your Archetype List” without giving free ranks. Then I’d like to see an Expert version that says “You may change the 2 Skill Talent option to be 1 Skill Talent and 1 Skill/Combat/Arcane/Devout Talent”. Once that choice is made, it cannot be changed.
I’m sorry, but can’t allow you to take Arcanum, Melee, or Ranged. I’m not even talking double dipping so you gain an 4 rank a tier, you would see a mass exodus from the expert Archetype for Combat Casters.

Not if they are part of the same Advancement as all other skills for those Archetypes. You’d still be limited to a max of 3. You could add a stipulation that only one combat OR arcanum skill may be added from the background’s list.

John

Not if they are part of the same Advancement as all other skills for those Archetypes. You’d still be limited to a max of 3. You could add a stipulation that only one combat OR arcanum skill may be added from the background’s list.

JohnIf they are a part of the same advancement you avoid the 4th rank. But if martial can start gaining a rank in Arcanum with their normal advancements, and Arcane/Divine can start gaining Melee/Ranged, I think the Expert Archetype will die.

Maybe it’s just me in that I feel only experts should be getting 3 ranks in a melee/ranged and 3 ranks in an Arcanum. I feel they should be the only ones who can do this, am I alone in this? At least not without a great cost?