A Pound of Flesh / Elemental Bolt (Advanced Spell)

Ok, I thought I’d see what I could do with the spell and specifically the AoE effect.

A Pound of Flesh / Elemental Bolt
Category: Advanced
CTN: 21 (18+18-15)
Speed (Strain): 7 (+4) ( 5 (+3) + ½ 4 (+2))
Range: 30’ (1 Target)
Duration: Instant
Defense: Avoidance

Effect: Choose an element (Earth, Air, Fire, or Water). Elemental Bolt deals d6 (Primary) damage of the chosen elemental type.

Effect: Your Target takes (Primary) damage and you instantly heal an ally of your choice by the same amount. The damage dealt by this spell bypasses the Target’s AR.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 6, Speed by 2 and Strain by 4 to change the range to 30’ (10’ Radius).

NOTE (added 3/6): The math below operates under the assumption that the effects for the spells are combined meaning that both the elemental damage ignores AR and that the healing is based on all damage taken. A new set of math has been added with these two elements kept strictly as separate effects as a separate post for clarity.

This currently gives a Spell with a CTN of 27 and a Speed of 9 (+8).

At Tier 2, starting with 3 ranks in Arcanum, adding 3 for Tier 1 and 3 for Tier 2 = 9 ranks. Add 1 for Sabatical or starting with 4 ranks for a total of 10. By Tier 2 it’s easy to expect that the caster will have at least an 8 Charisma, yielding a passive Arcanum of 26.

Take Spell Affinity at Tier 1 and Tier 2 for the two spells. This drops the CTN of the spell to 25. If desired you could apply Adaptation: Rapid Spell changing the spell to effectively: CTN 26, Speed 8 (+10). I don’t remember if you can apply the Rapid Spell Adaptation more than once. If so you could get it down to Speed 6 (+14) with a CTN of 28. While that would make the caster roll, Metaphysical Understanding would grant a +2 bonus to the roll and it would be made with an average roll.

The soonest you can get there is 2.4 (3 skill advancements and a talent advancement for the second Spell Affinity). From what I’ve seen this is within range of current players or will be before Origins.

With 10 ranks in Arcanum and assuming a d10 for Prowess nets 26.5 on the dice for the to hit. This average roll beats both the fortitude and discipline of every creature listed in the bestiary and A:RPG core rulebook up through Tier 2.5 with the exception of the Voei Warrior – Elite [Brute Martial] (Tier 2.0) whose defenses are 20/28/22. Even then it’s only off by 1 point. This includes beating the Ssanu (Adversary [Arcane, Martial] (Tier 2.0)), The Shadow Lion (Elite [Brute] Tier 2.0) and all of the Val’Baucisz Vampyrs including the Elite (Tier 3.0).

Damage per target is d6 + 2d10 in this example, so an average of 14.5 per target. 3 Targets is probably fair within a 10′ radius if you’re going to bother doing AoE as opposed to 2nd target, so 43.5 points of damage & healing on average in 8 ticks or 87 points of effect. There’s certainly the possibility of additional targets increasing the impact and that bypasses AR. With an AR of 3 the effective impact is 96 points in 8 ticks. The character can get interrupted which could slow down the casting. Presumably the caster and team will be working to mitigate this in a variety of ways.

Targeting himself with the healing through the 2nd and 3rd castings means the caster can effectively ignore worrying about strain even when casting under 20 points of it. He would still be at full afterwards. He always also has the option of spending a fate point to clear the strain. So, the Speed 8 is repeatable.

8 ticks Melee
Sweeping Strike + Mighty Swing, Exceptional d6 weapon (Speed 3), Weapon Mastery, Rune to add +1 Damage
Total maneuver cost 4 (+4)
For argument’s sake assume an effective might of d12, Prowess of d10 and 11 ranks in Melee given that the martial combatant can get an additional rank from a Path. Average attack roll is 28.5 hitting the avoidance of every creature listed in the Bestiary and core rule book.

While I think 3 targets are far less likely to present themselves to the character in close sweepable formation, for the purposes of this evaluation we’ll use 3. Damage for each attack is 17 for a total effect of 51 points. In the 4 ticks while burning off strain, the additional attack does another 12 points of damage for a net total of 63.

While you can come up with single attacks (adding Smite Infidel) that could boost the damage higher, the goal is to look at sustainable damage every 8 ticks for comparison purposes. The melee example is roughly half the effect of the spell. Strict damage favors the martial character at 2.4, but 3 opponents within arms reach means the martial combatant is likely to take more damage. It’s also likely that he’ll be unable to sustain constant available targets within range meaning that ticks will be used to move and attack, diluting the effect per tick.

The discrepancy is likely to grow as the characters reach Tier 3 and the additional skill ranks for the caster provides additional damage plus healing at a faster rate than the melee character can keep up. Even if you switched to look at options like Steel Rain and Darken the Skies, I doubt you’d find equivalent sustainable effects.

To a certain extent comparing spell casting to melee is something of an apples to oranges comparison, so finding another spell or spell combo to compare it’s total effects may be a better exercise. The gap however between the apple and orange though is big.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

And ‘A Pound of Flesh’ + ‘Elemental Bolt’, even before any adaptations, has a speed of 7 – that makes it interruptable AND gives said targets an opportunity to get out of the blast radius before the spell goes off.

The Adaptation Rapid Spell would make it a 6 (+6) spell and it can’t be interrupted. As for getting out of the blast radius you wouldn’t target the spell until it goes off, so it’s not like it’s an artillery shell. There’s also the Selective Spell Adaptation that could be applied to exclude friendlies, though that means it’s not a routine AoE spell to cast until Tier 3.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

you guys keep making assumptions that aren’t true or are debatable

ARPG 347

Area Attack Rolls: Attacks against Targets within an Area are handled by a single attack roll; the result of that roll is then compared to the Defense of all Targets within the affected Area. At first, this may seem like an all or nothing proposition, but it’s not as you will see below in the section on Area Damage.
Area Damage: Unlike most other forms of attack, Area Spells cannot critically succeed. Also unlike all other forms of attack, they still deal some damage when the caster fails to bypass a Target’s Defense: The spell still deals its base damage without the caster’s primary Attribute die. Thus a
d4 (Primary) spell would still deal d4 damage upon a miss. Minions are exempt from this, and do not suffer damage when missed.

Adaptation Rapid Spell, pg 184 ARPG
Reading the talent it doesn’t say you can apply it more than once (like adaptation Extended Range does for example) so you can only apply it once.

the Area version has a speed of 9, its not possible to speed that spell up enough to make it non interuptable

mith, you might want to read the adaptation you posted, its not the right adaptation

A Pound of Flesh on heals an Ally, therefore you cant heal yourself with it ( you could with vampiric touch, but that changes the whole equation of what your representing)

Again your comparing a AOE spell to Martial maneuver, its a apple to oranges comparison that is a worthy of an entirely different thread you could compare spells to spells and then we can talk about this

Making the assumption of the feat chain you are, is kinda important, so spell affinity 2x, metaphysical understanding, sabbatical. that’s most of the advancements for 2 tiers, is it worth it to really nerf a one trick pony like that?

Adaptation: Rapid Adaptation
[Arcanum]
You know how to rapidly add an Adaptation to a spell.
Requirement: Arcanum as a trained skill.
Adaptation Cost: CTN +3, Speed +0
Benefit: Once per Scene, you may reduce the Speed and
Strain cost of one application of an Adaptation to +0. You
may not use this Talent when casting an Advanced Spell or
when utilizing another Adaption Talent.

You can’t use Rapid Adaptation when casting an Advanced Spell. So, still interruptable.

Mith,

There are 2 separate Adaptations. The first is Rapid Adaptation which you quoted above. Just below it on the same page is Adaptation: Rapid Spell. It’s the second one I’m referring to.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

A few notes before I respond. First, I’ve done this as a clinical exercise. I have not been emotional about it nor was I sure what the damage was going to be for the martial end of things. To that end I’ve tried to keep my tone and my examples reasonable. If I have come across as overly combative or attacking, you have my apologies. I certainly wasn’t intending to. Second, if the spell to spell comparison comes out fairly comparable, then either this interpretation should be left alone or spells as a whole should be reviewed. Third, I think the concept of the spell is an interesting one especially if it can be properly balanced.

you guys keep making assumptions that aren’t true or are debatable

Adaptation Rapid Spell, pg 184 ARPG
Reading the talent it doesn’t say you can apply it more than once (like adaptation Extended Range does for example) so you can only apply it once.

the Area version has a speed of 9, its not possible to speed that spell up enough to make it non interuptable

Josh, in my example I only applied it once not more than once. I agree it doesn’t say you can apply it more than once but unlike some other spells doesn’t prohibit it. I believe I stated that I didn’t think you could, but IF you could it would still be within range of routine casting with Metaphysical Understanding.

A Pound of Flesh on heals an Ally, therefore you cant heal yourself with it ( you could with vampiric touch, but that changes the whole equation of what your representing)

Correct, I missed that detail. The net benefit is the same, though the caster will take damage after the first casting. This can be negated by the use of a Fate point to remove the strain. It may even be worth taking the initial 20 points of damage, depending, then fate pointing after the 2nd casting. Once you hit Tier 3 you could apply the Adaptation: Delay Strain and get through 4 castings on a single fate point.

Again your comparing a AOE spell to Martial maneuver, its a apple to oranges comparison that is a worthy of an entirely different thread you could compare spells to spells and then we can talk about this

I myself said as much that it’s an apples to oranges comparison martial vs. spell and that another spell comparison would be better. i am far more familiar with Martial Techniques and physical combat as I don’t have a primary spell caster at the moment. Given the effective doubling of bonus (damage plus healing) I expect it will be challenging to put something that doesn’t do a vampiric effect in the same total effect pool.

I would also be careful to ignore the caster vs. martial comparison. I would expect the goal is that martial characters at every tier are as effective and as useful as casters. I agree it can easily be it’s own thread or 3, but shouldn’t be ignored.

Making the assumption of the feat chain you are, is kinda important, so spell affinity 2x, metaphysical understanding, sabbatical. that’s most of the advancements for 2 tiers, is it worth it to really nerf a one trick pony like that?

To get back to your question about the feat chain. As you have pointed out the Rapid Spell Adaptation can’t be applied more than once which would negate the need for Metaphysical Understanding. I’m not even convinced that Rapid Spell is necessary to be honest, but thought I’d take a look at how quickly it could be done.

The Spell Affinity options are each half of the “Gain 2 Arcanum Talents” option with the other half at Tier 2 being your ASC. That’s hardly a ton of investment. Given how often Elemental Bolt is likely to be adapted, I have to imagine Spell Affinity is a popular pick. Likewise if your primary healing for allies is A Pound of Flesh the Spell Affinity would be tempting. At a minimum, by your second skill Advancement in Tier 3 you’ve already made up all the ground that Spell Affinity would cover.

Sabatical was an option to get a rank. Starting with 4 ranks is another. If you do the 2 Spell Affinity Talents you can start with 3 and skip Sabatical, Rapid Spell and Metaphysical Understanding. In which case you’ve only added 2 total Talents past your initial ASC to autocast it by tier 2.4. At that point you only need 9 ranks to get to the CTN 25 and you’re still auto-casting it. Starting with 3 ranks, adding 3 per tier as a primary caster and a total of 3 Talents is a modest and easily achievable investment.

As to your note on nerfing a one trick pony, I disagree with the sentiment for a couple reasons. First, depending on where the other examples net out I’m not necessarily advocating it being nerfed. The arguments for why to leave the spell alone implied that it was virtually out of reach with a 30 – 40% chance of casting I believe Mith stated and minimal effects. I believe I demonstrated that the spell is well within range of current characters and that it can be used to good effect regularly. I based this on looking at what an average attack roll hits when compared to published creatures. If people want to debate nerfing something then there should be an accurate picture of what’s truly being discussed.

Second, a caster with an autocast CTN of 25 and 2 good spells as part of their arsenal is hardly a one trick pony.

As I’ve stated previously, I think the spell is an interesting spell. I think the AoE portion likely makes it too good at the current return for investment based on my review so far.

Respectfully and with a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Archetype: Arcane (Primal Magic Source)
Race: val’Mordane or human
Background: Shaman Initiate
1 more rank from Skill selection during character creation.

Primary Casting Stat 8 (either through character creation or a 7 with a single stat increase somewhere in Tier 1)
Taking Elemental Bolt and A Pound of Flesh as 2 spells of 5.
Taking Spell Affinity (Elemental Bolt) at Tier one
Taking all 3 Skill increases during Tier 1
= Passive Arcanum 23

Taking Spell Affinity (A Pound of Flesh) at Tier 2 (along with Arcane Spell Casting)
Selecting the 3 Skill increases anywhere in Tier 2
Selecting Sabbatical as a Talent for one more Skill increase.
=Passive Arcanum 27
Being a val’Mordane you can take few bloodlines talents and the Shaman (Tier 1 and 3) path to have a couple mobs of zombies (from Graveblight: Zombie) that follow instructions (from Death is Not and Ending talent[Tier 4])

Coming at it from another way, wouldn’t the Stacking rules apply?

The spell is a single Source (Spell), so even if it affects multiple targets, you could only receive the best damage roll as healing.

Eg. You make an advanced spell that hits three targets (area or multiple targets). Target A takes 8, Target B takes 6 and Target C takes 4. Ally D could only receive the highest healing, which is the damage from Target A; the rest is wasted due to stacking rules.

1) You’re just randomly adding 9 points of “effect”. Targets having AR or not does not change the dice roll or the sum produced. If anything, it doesn’t get *reduced* by 9 points.

2) You’re assuming all targets are non-minions and not injured enough that the attack will vanquish them. If one of them is a minion the “points of effect” drops to 60. If two of them are minions, that’s 33. If all three are minions, a massive 6 points of effect.

3) The total damage done to a single target is, on average, 14.5 (as you said). That’s not even into “impressive” waters. That the same damage also heals an ally is what makes that impressive

4) I agree that said spell can swing the momentum by doing quite a bit of healing to a single target, but you’ve still only done 14.5 damage to each individual target. The healing aspect is great, the damage factor is pretty ‘meh’.