A Pound of Flesh / Elemental Bolt (Advanced Spell)

Let me say that this is an invaluable thread, and I thank everyone for participating, particularly the people that disagree with my viewpoints. thank you.

Things that are going to be discussed in the coming weeks regarding the upcoming errata, are going to be Advanced spells and Vampiric spells (cant you tell by this thread they are hot buttons?)

here are some requests, lets get some “apples to apples” type of comparisons going, i think Paul Hat was on the right track with busting out the Actual stats for the resulted AOE pound of flesh ball, can someone come up with a good comparison spell (I like explosive decompression myself but the CTN is a bit high for comparison)

one of the biggst gripes is that this spell does too much healing. yet no one has compared it to any healing spells, how does this compare to similar CTN healing spells?

one of the biggst gripes is that this spell does too much healing. yet no one has compared it to any healing spells, how does this compare to similar CTN healing spells?
Looks like the closest you’re going to get is the Tier 3 Revitalize with multiple adaptations. For a CTN of 26 you could heal everyone in a 10′ radius for 1d10(Primary); CTN of 30 for 1d12(Primary). Now, note there’s no need to roll to hit anything here, unlike the combined spell. Additionally, the combined spell still has a chance the caster can’t make the CTN roll. If there’s a healer that can’t auto-make a CTN of 26 by Tier 3, that’s just sad and pathetic…

You’re right, you cannot ignore AR as it applies to calculating damage. That still doesn’t bump the total from 87 to 96, rather it would take a 78 (if AR were applied) to the 87 (with AR ignored).

In my math I have 14.5 * 3 = 43.5 damage ignoring AR + 43.5 healing from damage = 87. Add in 3 AR per target ignored (3 from the example) is 9 points of effect. 87 + 9 = 96.

Your comparison of a simple Sweeping Strike is not a like comparison. The mage “blew is wad” casting the combined spell,

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that the mage “blew his wad”. Casting the spell the first time generates 10 strain, yes. If desired a fate point can negate this and allow them to immediately cast again. Starting at Tier 3, for 1 more Arcane Talent, the caster can pick up delay strain. Based on a 9 (+8) spell, the delay is CTN +3 which = 1 Tier (Tier 2 to Tier 3). Autocasting in Tier 2 means you’re still autocasting in Tier 3 with that adaptation. Cast spell for average 87 (or 96) points of effect and delay strain. Immediately cast again over the next 9 ticks for the same. Burn 1 point of fate and you can cast it again twice with no negative effects. That’s not 1 shot, that’s sustainable which is what I based it on. In this case it’s 36 ticks for 1 fate point. Even in Tier 2, for 2 fate points you can go 27 ticks with no negative effects. Again, that’s sustainable damage and healing not 1/scene stuff.

I’m perfectly open to you providing an alternative melee scenario. I was generous in my initial assessment especially giving D12 might damage at Tier 2. I included no movement which is completely unrealistic in almost every scenario either with the initial attack or with subsequent follow ups to try and keep 3 targets. Please provide a melee scenario limited to the 3 Talents you’re permitting me for my Tier 2 example or perhaps 4 if you go Tier 3. So far we’re already up to Sweeping Strike and Weapon Mastery, though if you’d prefer swapping them out, I’m fine with that. Honestly, I’m not sure how to reasonably get to D12 at Tier 2, but I’m willing to defer to a more precise build.

I’m sure there are a lot of people who know the rules far better than I and I’m happy to see more precise examples. One nice thing about discussions such as these is that I gain a better understanding of the rules in the process. Thanks.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

In my math I have 14.5 * 3 = 43.5 damage ignoring AR + 43.5 healing from damage = 87. Add in 3 AR per target ignored (3 from the example) is 9 points of effect. 87 + 9 = 96.
Then your math is wrong, Paul.

You’re already ignoring AR to get 43.5 damage. You can’t add in another 3 points of damage, that’s ignoring the AR twice.

Ignoring AR: damage = healing = 43.5
Not Ignoring 3 AR: damage = healing = 34.5

Ok, I’ve gone back and reread the original spell and most of the thread. My understanding of the advanced spell rules is that you combine the effects of the base spells. To me this meant that the combined damage of both base spells ignored the AR and all accounted towards the healing. Given that my understanding may be wrong and the two effects should be applied completely separately, I have done 2 things.

1) Added a note to my original math to indicate the assumptions it operates under. This will allow anyone who later reads it or references it to understand it in context. The text of the note is as follows:
“NOTE (added 3/6): The math below operates under the assumption that the effects for the spells are combined meaning that both the elemental damage ignores AR and that the healing is based on all damage taken. A new set of math has been added with these two elements kept strictly as separate effects as a separate post for clarity.”

2) I’ve redone the math below under the assumption that while each effect in the spell hits each target, they must be counted separately. If this is the case, then I suggest adding a note to the spell letting people know this to avoid confusion in the future.

A Pound of Flesh / Elemental Bolt
Category: Advanced
CTN: 21 (18+18-15)
Speed (Strain): 7 (+4) ( 5 (+3) + ½ 4 (+2))
Range: 30’ (1 Target)
Duration: Instant
Defense: Avoidance

Effect: Choose an element (Earth, Air, Fire, or Water). Elemental Bolt deals d6 (Primary) damage of the chosen elemental type.

Effect: Your Target takes (Primary) damage and you instantly heal an ally of your choice by the same amount. The damage dealt by this spell bypasses the Target’s AR.

Adaptation: Increase the CTN by 6, Speed by 2 and Strain by 4 to change the range to 30’ (10’ Radius).

This currently gives a Spell with a CTN of 27 and a Speed of 9 (+8).

At Tier 2, starting with 3 ranks in Arcanum, adding 3 for Tier 1 and 3 for Tier 2 = 9 ranks. With at least an 8 Charisma, passive Arcanum is 25. To close the remaining 2 point gap it’s possible to add 1 for Sabatical and start with 4 ranks. This is a fairly specific and specialized build. The more reasonable way to close the autocast gap is to take Spell Affinity in both base spells, one in Tier 1 and 1 in Tier 2. By early Tier 3 both of these methods become moot as the spell can be autocast easily. It is however possible to autocast this spell at Tier 2.4 for a nominal investment (the 2 Arcane Spell Casting Talents).

With 9 ranks in Arcanum and assuming a d10 for Prowess nets 25.5 on the dice for the to hit. This average roll beats both the fortitude and discipline of every creature listed in the bestiary and A:RPG core rulebook up through Tier 2.5 with the exception of the Voei Warrior – Elite [Brute Martial] (Tier 2.0) whose defenses are 20/28/22. Even then it’s only off by 2 points. This includes beating the Ssanu (Adversary [Arcane, Martial] (Tier 2.0)), The Shadow Lion (Elite [Brute] Tier 2.0) and all of the Val’Baucisz Vampyrs including the Elite (Tier 3.0).

Elemental damage per target is d6 + d10, averaging 9 per target. In addition the damage done by the vampiric effect is d10 averaging 5.5 per target.

Given the spell will not be cast in this form without a minimum of 3 Targets, I’ll use 3 as the number rather than look at more extreme examples. In this case each target takes a total of 14.5 points of damage. Multiplied by 3 Targets is 43.5 points of damage. This damage is effected by AR and may end up being significantly lower.

The ally then gains the benefits of the healing – 5.5 * 3 Targets = 16.5 points. Total net effect is 60.

IF this is the intended way the spell is supposed to play out I think the spell may be fine as is.

Given concerns over the power of vampiric effects it would be well to explicitly clarify whether the vampiric part or the non-vampiric part lands first. To hedge against unforeseen combos or additions in the future, I would default to vampiric effect last and you can only take whatever’s left. I.e. if the other damaging part vanquishes an opponent, there’s nothing left there to grab for healing.

REQUEST: Josh & or Mith, please clarify the assumptions you’re operating under and which of my 2 models you believe is correct. That way we as people can talk apples to apples.

Respectfully and with a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Btw Josh, Paul or Hat is fine. I answer to either. If you want to combine the two for clarity might I recommend Paul with the Hat? It’s how the whole nickname started in the first place.

I still disagree about the healing due to Stacking rules (3 x Same Source <> huge healing amount).

In another thread, it was discussed that AOE spells almost always get a single roll to hit (or miss) everyone and a single damage roll (only spells and maneuvers that specify separate attacks per target normally get multiple rolls (for either hit or damage)).