Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)

@ Harliquinn: Which does fit the character that Arcane Spell Casting ability is a rare ability, while Divine and Primal is a learned or imbued ability.

I don’t recall Arcane being ‘rare’, only dangerous. My understanding is that Eldritch was a ‘learned’ ability and ‘Elder’ is an imbued ability, so by that rationale there *should* be a Background to have learned them in your past.

John

My understanding (Henry?) is that they are BOTH genetic, inborn talents. This is supported by the Apprentice Arcanist Path:

Apprentice Arcanist
“Although the spark of Arcane Potential was recognized
later in your life, you will be placed under the tutelage of an
experienced Magus, if for no other reason than to prepare you
for the night the Harvesters of Ymandragore arrive to steal you
away.” – Oren Svart, Magus of the Sanctorum

The only mechanical difference between Elder and Eldritch is the level of discipline needed to harness the power. Eldritch is you needing to know what you are doing and make an ‘educated guess’, while Elder requires you to have the mental discipline to do complex magical formulae in your head.

I expect that’s because you can’t start with full casting as a Elder or Eldritch caster as an Expert. You can with Primal, Sarishan Sorcerer-Priest and Psionics now using the Undisciplined Psion from CoH.

As a note, you can’t have any casting at the end of character creation with Undisciplined Psion. It is verboten.

I think expert is extremely strong since they can get all the skills they want with only 3 advancement slots. Arcane/Divine/martial all have to use 4 slots to get all their advancement opportunities, which is very expensive.

As a note, you can’t have any casting at the end of character creation with Undisciplined Psion. It is verboten.

Thanks for the reminder about the change with the latest errata. It still opens that door and doesn’t require a Path expenditure, but you’re right – characters still need to take Prestidigitation and ASC: Psionics over the course of 2 advancements after play starts.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I think this would be a good way to handle Eldritch or Elder casting too. Just make Rudimentary Casting ‘unlimited’ with a background and it still requires heavy investment.

John

As a divine, I never use it. Hell, the only thing Divine gives me that nothing else does is 1) spell casting progression, and 2) Devout Talents.

…snip…I have no problem with Unravel being limited to Arcane/Divine Archetypes. I think Move Object is basically ‘prestidigitation’ and should be available as a Universal Spell but that’s a different discussion. …snip…
Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu…but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.

…snip…To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn’t even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.

Hmmm. Noted. I’ll work something up and add it to my (growing) list of “new crunch” that’s waiting for either a home game or a submission call from PCI.

…snip…To be clear, I would be thrilled with a Background that just unlocked Rudimentary Arcane Casting. It doesn’t even have to give the talent. This still requires a lot more investment than an Arcane character, but at least makes it possible to start that way.

Hmmm. Noted. I’ll work something up and add it to my (growing) list of “new crunch” that’s waiting for either a home game or a submission call from PCI.

This insistence on adding a way to become a full arcane caster without investing in either the Archetype or a Path basically says that the issue is one of game mechanics, not with concept. An Arcane Archetype could be mixed with any other background with an explanation of “discovered late” to mimic the story.

The system is conceived and built around the concepts of the great archetypes. Experts are supposed to excel as skill monkeys be that as rogues, scouts or scholars. As I think as has been amply demonstrated, the barriers to becoming full casters are low enough that with a modicum of effort pretty much anyone can become one.

This push seems to further erode at the archetype basis. Most characters are casters of some sort, and we’re not short on Divine casters. The Divine archetype though gets a bit of a short shrift though. I think it’s easy to make a case that the problem doesn’t lie with the archetype, but rather the ease at which Divine casting is available through other backgrounds.

What I honestly would like to understand is what’s driving this push. Is it believing that at it’s core the archetype system’s flawed? Or if the archetype concept is sound, how does adding the requested background option support the archetype system rather than erode it? Why isn’t the Arcane archetype or Apprentice Arcanist Path sufficient? Or using Sword and Spell or the similar talents in CoH to help keep up?

This isn’t meant as an attack. I know Harlequin and val’Holryn and respect their/your opinions. I just don’t see how this change though helps the system.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Hi John,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

This insistence on adding a way to become a full arcane caster without investing in either the Archetype or a Path basically says that the issue is one of game mechanics, not with concept. An Arcane Archetype could be mixed with any other background with an explanation of “discovered late” to mimic the story.

This could be said of every single Background out there for the most part. The system is pretty rich in variety and letting you build the character you want from many different ways. There is a notable exception of the ability to cast some Arcane Eldritch/Elder magic at character generation without being an Arcane Archetype. This allowance supports *many* traditional concepts in other games: The Bard being a notable (Expert/Arcane), The Duskblade/Hexblade/Magus (Martial/Arcane).

Not all concepts should be ported directly from other systems, but it’s a valid point. I can see a couple of different options outside of what you’ve proposed. The thing that doesn’t add up for me, is if the spell access is important rather than the nature of the background, then it’s at least as kludgy a fit if your goal is a bard, and the background is something like – Self-taught Recluse. I’d rather tackle the larger concepts that are missing rather than focusing on the mechanics as otherwise it might not fix the problem. If a new background is really the fix, then it should be the right background to support those kinds of concepts directly.

Bards are a mix of skill talents, skills especially perform and casting. To build an effective Bard off the Arcane Archetype talent, what seems to be missing is support for Perform skills to maintain a 3 ranks/tier advancement. The Arcane’s advancement to advance lore skills by an extra rank per tier (to 3) grants that flexibility. One option could be a talent that adds Perform to the list of skills that can be taken with an Archetype’s advancement list in the same way that Sharp Eyes adds perception.

Another option would be to add a special to the entry level Bard Path stating that Rudimentary Spellcasting (Elder, Eldritch, Primal) is no longer a Limited talent. As a dabbler in things you’d still have Prestidigitation as you need it to qualify for the Path. I know this second option doesn’t provide the full spell casting progression at start of character, but if combined with the talent suggestion I mentioned first, this becomes 2 valid paths to the end concept of a fully casting bard with different trade-offs depending on what’s most important.

Sure, these are available via Paths, but Paths shouldn’t have to be used to build the core character concept. Paths should build on those core concepts to specialize or take the character in unique directions. Using Paths to ‘discover late’ is fine if that’s your concept, but if your concept is “I’m a character whose done a little bit of skills and a little bit of magic” at character generation, there are a few venues blocked to you for no obvious reason.

There are a number of examples of Paths that need to be taken as the first advancement to explain a character’s background – Coryani Battlemage and Centurion immediately leap to mind as they are combined with Former legionnaire, meaning you’ve already mustered out. I would point out that “a little bit of skills and a little bit of magic” is easily done with Prestidigitation and starting skill selection regardless of Archetype. Once you allow for even Rudimentary Casting to be open, there’s virtually no daylight between a starting Expert and a starting Arcane in terms of casting. Any background that would open that door would have to grant Arcanum (Sorcery), meaning that with the use of Adaptable an Expert can start with 4 ranks in the casting skill. Someone who has as much spell power as a character who’s devoted their whole life to the pursuit doesn’t feel like a dabbler to me.

On the other hand you’re correct that the options are there for virtually everything else. The other complication for this kind of background is that I feel that there should be one that’s for non-Elorii and one for Elorii. I don’t feel – perhaps incorrectly – that Eloran society as a whole has the same fear of Ymmandragore that others do. If an Elorii character comes from the Vastwood, harvesters are arguably a non-issue until after they’ve started character play. For everyone else, if they had access to the training, why weren’t they brought in by the Sanctorum? Though currently nothing within the Arcane Archetype requires contact with the Sanctorm allowing characters to be created with training without that connection, so that point is somewhat moot.

I’ve yet to hear a compelling reason why the ability to unlock/learn Arcane Casting (I’m not even saying give full casting but at least unlocking the potential with something like Rudimentary Arcane Casting) during character generation isn’t supported. I’ve heard reasons that it is learned and takes a long time. However, I could take the Path at Tier 1.1 that gives Arcane Casting, which doesn’t represent nearly the amount of time that you’d have spent if you were studying arcane magic as a Background (Usually 5-15 years). I’ve heard reasons that it’s inborn and takes a while to surface, but then Psionics and Shamanism (which is inborn) can both be unlocked during character generation.

I’m not sure I fully agree with the assessment. Here’s my understanding of the way arcane magic works.
1. Elder/Eldritch – requires the Gift and you have it or you don’t. You can discover it later, but you cannot gain it later. The closest to gaining it later are the Ymmandragoran Winedrinkers. There is nothing specifically in the write up under the Arcane Archetype, Elder Sorcerer’s Apprentice Background nor the description of Elder sorcery itself that explicitly mentions the years of study. It can be implied given the much greater starting age for an Elorii elder sorcerer’s apprentice (180), but it’s not explicit. To a certain extent I think that the Apprentice Archanist Path is one requiring a certain suspension of disbelief in how long it takes to master to work mechanically.
2. Primal – requires no Spark. Power is granted through pacts made with spirits.
3. Sarishan Sorcerer-Priests – Their version of magic is so strange as to be hard to quantify. With full access to both Arcane and Devout talents except in cases requiring Cants, they are a bit hard to decipher. It does not require the gift though as this is arguably more of a Divine practice.
4. Psionics – requires being a val and some sort of awakening event. Preparation and training alone aren’t sufficient regardless of preparation. This can be seen by someone taking the Awakened Psion background without gaining access to the casting. I can think of a variety of reasons to describe why this doesn’t happen by character creation, all with their own interesting story implications (spontaneously awakened early, failed awakening attempt, refused having an awakening attempt, etc.)

In addition, I see no reason why the desire to have this added suddenly erodes the Archetypes, as just about every other possible combination is already allowed. You can get full Divine Casting from every Archetype; You can get Shaman, Psionics, and Sorcerer-Priest Arcane Casting from every Archetype; You can learn a lot of skills like an Expert (using Talents, Backgrounds) from every Archetype; You can take Martial Techniques and get Armor like a Martial for every Archetype. Perhaps you can go into more detail why the addition of the last 2 Arcane being available is doing the eroding?

I think the access through as many backgrounds as there are to full casting as a starting character who’s not of the associate archetype already erodes the archetypes. I think the Sword & Spell and related talents do the same, although there is more of a bite to that set of options. Given the choice I would change Prestidigitation to only grant Unravel if a character is an Arcane or Divine archetype and change open access to A/DSC granted by Shaman Initiate, Initiate of the Gods, Templar etc. to Rudimentary Casting/Prayers is no longer Limited. Those kind of changes are far more of an overhaul of the system than a new talent or background though. So the question at this point is more do you continue down the slope or not? And obviously this is just my opinion of how the archetypes should be implemented. I don’t have a problem with non-Archetype caster builds. My primary was designed that way off the Martial archetype and I accept that his casting is secondary.

Just because a Martial or Expert takes a Background in Casting, it doesn’t mean that they are going to be the equal of an Arcane or Divine Caster without sacrificing a lot of their Archetype’s features. There are still very different character builds/concepts supported depending upon which Archetype you take.

After the initial investment, very little is needed to “keep up” with a dedicated archetype focused caster build, at least for an Expert. One skill and one talent per tier is what’s needed to keep up with the base. They may not have quite as many adaptations or spells as the dedicated caster, but pretty close to it and the Martial or Expert still gains their additional focused benefits per tier. A/DSC is the single most powerful talent / technique in the game bar none. How much of the rest of the Arcane or Divine’s archetype sets themselves apart?

This could be mitigated if there were more talents that required a specific archetype or spell access that required either archetype or Path requirements. These are things that could be built into new content or a 2nd edition if one is eventually released, but they’re not present today.

I hope this helps shed some light on the request and why I don’t feel it changes the game at all, other than to allow the last few combinations that are missing from character generation.

It does and I hope my response illustrates the questions and concerns I have opening that door. I think that the A:RPG is one of the best mechanical systems out there especially in support of the world it’s built for. I like it’s design philosophy and flexibility. I think care needs to be taken not to push things too far because once you open a door and let people through, it’s hard to push them back and close it. Again, you’ve got valid points in terms of all of the other options being available and a request for access to Rudimentary Spellcasting rather than making ASC available may be a reasonable compromise.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu…but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.

It wouldn’t take a separate talent would it? It could just replace a spell of your choice when you take the normal ASC, I thought. I thought you could choose universal spells then, instead of a normal spell from your tradition. So at tier II you could get two primary, one secondary, and unravel; or one of each and unravel.

The rules as written are a bit unclear. Universal spells are not a tradition listed under A/DSC. The Tiered benefits note that you “Choose one primary and two secondary Traditions that you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic.” With Universal not listed in the traditions / benefits within the talent it appears to be saying no.

Under Prestidigitation you select a Source as part of that, and Universal is a tradition which argues towards allowing it and yet Prestidigitation specifically notes to use the Learn Spell talent to get them.

Also, the FAQ seems to reinforce that opinion:

“Question: Does the Prestidigitation Talent give access to Universal Advanced and Sustained spells, or must they be learned through other means?

Answer: No, as stated in the Talent you only gain access to Base Universal spells, you must take the Learn Spell Talent to learn any of the Universal Advanced spells. The exception to this is when you gain both Prestidigitation and Arcane/Divine Spell casting at the same step during character generation, in which case you ALSO learn all the Universal Advanced and Sustained spells. Arcane and Divine Archtypes are granted both of those spells during the Archtype step, Expert and Martial Archtypes that are permitted to learn Arcane/Divine Casting through a Background may take both Talents during step 9 of character creation. However, Experts that take Prestidigitation during step 9 must qualify for the Talent normally.”

As such I would learn towards no, but it would be good to know. Possibly worth bringing up in the rules discussion section though for an official answer.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul