Makers of Award-winning Role Playing Games › Forums › Arcanis: The Shattered Empires › Arcanis: Players Commons › Arcanis Character Poll, take 2 (or 3?)
- This topic has 61 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by Anonymous.
- AuthorPosts
- April 2, 2015 at 4:04 pm #266942AnonymousInactive
Hey that actually sounds like a good idea to me. Would suck for Tukufu…but Unravel is important enough I would spend a talent to pick it up.
It wouldn’t take a separate talent would it? It could just replace a spell of your choice when you take the normal ASC, I thought. I thought you could choose universal spells then, instead of a normal spell from your tradition. So at tier II you could get two primary, one secondary, and unravel; or one of each and unravel.
The rules as written are a bit unclear. Universal spells are not a tradition listed under A/DSC. The Tiered benefits note that you “Choose one primary and two secondary Traditions that you have gained access to from your chosen source of magic.” With Universal not listed in the traditions / benefits within the talent it appears to be saying no.
Under Prestidigitation you select a Source as part of that, and Universal is a tradition which argues towards allowing it and yet Prestidigitation specifically notes to use the Learn Spell talent to get them.
Also, the FAQ seems to reinforce that opinion:
“Question: Does the Prestidigitation Talent give access to Universal Advanced and Sustained spells, or must they be learned through other means?
Answer: No, as stated in the Talent you only gain access to Base Universal spells, you must take the Learn Spell Talent to learn any of the Universal Advanced spells. The exception to this is when you gain both Prestidigitation and Arcane/Divine Spell casting at the same step during character generation, in which case you ALSO learn all the Universal Advanced and Sustained spells. Arcane and Divine Archtypes are granted both of those spells during the Archtype step, Expert and Martial Archtypes that are permitted to learn Arcane/Divine Casting through a Background may take both Talents during step 9 of character creation. However, Experts that take Prestidigitation during step 9 must qualify for the Talent normally.”
As such I would learn towards no, but it would be good to know. Possibly worth bringing up in the rules discussion section though for an official answer.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
pg 342 of the core rule book, in the very first section (third paragraph, though really it is a stand alone sentence), “All Arcanum have access to the Universal Tradition.” So I assume that means it can be chosen as one of your minor traditions during advancement to pick up unravel the thread.
April 2, 2015 at 4:20 pm #266943AnonymousInactiveHat
You make great points. Not a lot of time for a reply but wanted to address something. Part of my desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation (From a Archetype/Ability standpoint). I feel Backgrounds could be made much more general to accomplish this and leave Paths to really focusing or broadly defining your character. That way you don’t need 4 backgrounds on how you gained “Arcane Casting” just 1 and you can tweak it based upon the arcane casting you want (Within guidelines given by the rules)Example: Instead of all the ‘former legionnaire, former soldier, etc’ with very specific requirements and specific skills/weapons…I would love to see something like that so that characters could choose a background that broadly matches their conceptual desires and can customize it to match their mechanical desires.
John
April 2, 2015 at 4:54 pm #266944AnonymousInactiveAlas, John, I’m not sure I can 100% agree with you. Sure, I do appreciate the ‘mix and match’ appeal of the ‘Generic to the point of no identity’ backgrounds and what it does to character creation, as well as giving a far more broad appeal for not-Arcanis gaming using the rules, but one thing the present ARPG rules do is let you build characters IN UNIVERSE. To be honest, I don’t like the generic “Former Soldier” background as it doesn’t fit within the rules as they are written were Legionnaire gets a separate category, but it is meant as a general catchall to save space I imagine.
As for the Arcanum, I know that for your build and desires you want an ‘easy’ way of acquiring magic, but there is nothing within the Arcanis Canon as it stands which implies that any Tom/Dick/Marius can learn arcane casting via the Eldritch and Elder sources. We have plenty of fluff which implies that it is an inborn talent/gene which lets you do this, and the rules reflect this. On the other side, all Vals have the ability to become Psionically active (a racial trait), anyone can (in theory) learn the Cants of the Gods because that is how they were designed, anyone can make a ‘deal with the devil’ and become a Primal caster, but Eldritch and Elder are not like that. Sure, in 3.5 days anyone could become a wizard, but remember that the 3.5 rules had to be crowbarred into the game (or visca versa) and that trope isn’t found in Arcanis presently.
As to the ‘desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation’ comment, Pedro and Henry have always stated that not everything is created equal. Total freedom looks attractive (and if they ever do a generic ARPG engine like D&D 5ed, they’d have to), but in a specific universe with specific rules, you need to make the rules support the realities of the universe too.
April 2, 2015 at 5:01 pm #266945AnonymousInactiveI feel Backgrounds could be made much more general to accomplish this and leave Paths to really focusing or broadly defining your character. That way you don’t need 4 backgrounds on how you gained “Arcane Casting” just 1 and you can tweak it based upon the arcane casting you want (Within guidelines given by the rules) Example: Instead of all the ‘former legionnaire, former soldier, etc’ with very specific requirements and specific skills/weapons…I would love to see something like that so that characters could choose a background that broadly matches their conceptual desires and can customize it to match their mechanical desires.
I think it can work both ways. There are certainly more general backgrounds such as Former Soldier. There are more flavorful backgrounds such as Former Legionnaire. People being exposed to the system for the first time or looking for inspiration may not want to do all of the background reading to help settle them in the world before they pick a character concept. Things like these more specialized backgrounds help ground players and characters into the larger world and the especially the story of the world that is one of the strongest points of Arcanis.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
April 2, 2015 at 5:29 pm #266946AnonymousInactiveAlas, John, I’m not sure I can 100% agree with you. Sure, I do appreciate the ‘mix and match’ appeal of the ‘Generic to the point of no identity’ backgrounds and what it does to character creation, as well as giving a far more broad appeal for not-Arcanis gaming using the rules, but one thing the present ARPG rules do is let you build characters IN UNIVERSE. To be honest, I don’t like the generic “Former Soldier” background as it doesn’t fit within the rules as they are written were Legionnaire gets a separate category, but it is meant as a general catchall to save space I imagine.
Cody,
First, I don’t want there to be confusion that I’m advocating removing identity from backgrounds. I’m actually proposing to ‘increase’ identity in the Backgrounds by offering players ways to customize the existing backgrounds to suit their character concept and further their identity.As an example, say my concept is a Former Street Urchin. Currently, there is a Background for that which offers very specific Skills and Talents. However, my vision for an Urchin was more of a Break and Entering type, who had good athletics, deceit, perception, lockpicking, and could use a dagger well. In the current system, I could either pick the “Former Street Urchin” background and take what the author of that Background feels is the iconic Street Urchin (though it doesn’t really advance the skills I want) OR I could scour all the backgrounds for what fits my concept mechanically and then ‘rename’ or ‘reflavor’ it if possible. I would just like to see more ‘flexibility’ within each Background and have fewer and allow characters to build their concept and identity without having to artificially fit within a confined background.
Some backgrounds which I feel are written really well are: Former Soldier (You can customize this to your own identity, it doesn’t have to be presented in character as a generic soldier) and Minstrel. Some I feel are pidgeonholed based upon the skills/talents when the ‘concept’ of the background could be highly varied between characters: Sailor (Talent wise, skills are decent), Performer (Not every performer is a liar), Vagabond (Such fixed skills for such a broad type of character), Bodyguard (Why not give a choice of Battle or Mettle for this as well? Those are obvious good choices for a bodyguard to have).
As for the Arcanum, I know that for your build and desires you want an ‘easy’ way of acquiring magic, but there is nothing within the Arcanis Canon as it stands which implies that any Tom/Dick/Marius can learn arcane casting via the Eldritch and Elder sources. We have plenty of fluff which implies that it is an inborn talent/gene which lets you do this, and the rules reflect this. On the other side, all Vals have the ability to become Psionically active (a racial trait), anyone can (in theory) learn the Cants of the Gods because that is how they were designed, anyone can make a ‘deal with the devil’ and become a Primal caster, but Eldritch and Elder are not like that. Sure, in 3.5 days anyone could become a wizard, but remember that the 3.5 rules had to be crowbarred into the game (or visca versa) and that trope isn’t found in Arcanis presently.
I’m not looking for an ‘easy’ way. I’m looking for a way to have access to magic at character generation. In my opinion, having a background that unlocks “Rudimentary Arcane Casting” only is far from ‘easy’. You still need to invest 3 Talents: Rudimentary Arcane Casting, Arcane Spell Casting, and Prestidigitation (likely) to get full casting. That’s quite an investment, but it does allow the character to cast spells at character generation.
Given that there is a path that gives this exact thing, and assuming that gaining a Rank and therefore a potential Path represents maybe a month of in game time of adventuring (To earn 1000 XP), I’m not sure from a ‘fluff’ perspective why it’s so unrealistic to have spent 10-15 years of your early life unlocking the very basic, rudimentary ways to channel arcane energy (using a background with an Expert or Martial Archetype) but perfectly fine to have spent about a month to do the same after you’d devote the earlier part of your life doing something else.
As to the ‘desire is to have consistency within the system so that you can build your entire concept at character generation’ comment, Pedro and Henry have always stated that not everything is created equal. Total freedom looks attractive (and if they ever do a generic ARPG engine like D&D 5ed, they’d have to), but in a specific universe with specific rules, you need to make the rules support the realities of the universe too.
I would better be able to believe this if just about every option wasn’t already available. There are few limitations on Backgrounds, Talents, Paths due to restrictions on race or archetype. Mostly things are limited by the Talents and Skills you choose. Sure there are some hard and fast rules (e.g. Can’t have both Arcane and Divine casting) but generally almost anyone can do almost anything, with a few notable (but important) exceptions. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t see a ton of restrictions in the system as it is now, so I’m not sure why the concepts presented are the ones to break the camel’s back so to speak.
John
April 2, 2015 at 6:08 pm #266948AnonymousInactiveThe more I think of it, the more I think I’ve figured out why I don’t like the Expert archetype:
It breaks the game.
Not ‘breaks’ as in makes the game unplayable, but breaks the game balance in that every archetype should be balanced. Personally, I think Martial, Divine, and Arcane are reasonably balanced to each other, but while they have identity and balance, they don’t have necessarily what players want which is usually to be Gods. Expert allows so much variability and versatility that it is mechanically superior to all the other Archetypes enough that–as several prominent (or at least, highly vocal) members of the community have trumpeted in this very thread–many people simply refuse to make characters in other archetypes. The poll in this thread shows that 40% of people’s primary characters fall into that Archetype, though the average drops to only 30% over everyone’s secondary and tertiary characters. When almost half the players choose one of four options, it shows that the essential game balance is off, or that there is a ‘correct’ character build like we saw in D&D.
Does this mean that the Expert is essentially designed to be too powerful? I cannot say. I personally would like it to be HARDER for everyone to get spell casting, having to get it through a Path if they don’t take the Archetype to get is (such as Apprentice Arcanist, Spontaneously Awakened Psion, or Initiate Itinerant). I was not a huge fan of Undisciplined Psion, but to me it made sense in the universe and clarifications have made it less rough to get. To be able to build an Expert who can do LITERALLY anything in the game out of character creation EXCEPT cast Eldritch or Elder while others need 1000 XP to do it seems off to me.
April 2, 2015 at 6:42 pm #266952AnonymousInactiveI disagree that Expert is broken. Each Archetype (except possibly Divine) has significant advantages over others depending on your character concept. Each has tradeoffs. If I wanted to play a primarily dedicated caster, I’d pick Arcane. If I wanted a primarily combat character, I’d pick Martial. If I want a hybrid, I’ll pick Expert (which I usually do because I like hybrid). Martial getting Advanced Armor Training and 2 techniques for 1 advance is huge for a physical combat character (effectively +1 Avoidance and halving advances needed for techniques). Arcane is a little less cut-and-dry to me but I’ve still built a few characters where it seemed to fit what I wanted better than Expert.
Divine, on the other hand, I think is broken (in the opposite way). I have not made any divine caster where I thought the Divine archetype worked better than Expert (and neither have my players). I’m sure there are concepts that do work better as Divine than Expert but I haven’t found them (especially if you don’t mind not having the advanced universal spells).
April 2, 2015 at 6:45 pm #266953AnonymousInactiveCody
I don’t think Experts are seeking to be “Gods”. I know for me, I just prefer the flexibility that Expert offers. This seems supported by the ‘fluff’ write-up in the Expert Archetype paragraph in the book as well.For me personally, I tend to be a very ‘not in the norm’ character maker, so the constraints presented by Arcane and Divine just don’t appeal to me as they don’t offer a lot of flexibility outside the narrowly defined structure of skills (I also don’t like the way the Advancements are structured to require 2 Advancements to raise all their skills). I think Martial characters are better structured to allow for flexibility, and I’d readily play a Martial Character (Though I might take a Divine Casting Background as well for a few buffs) if it fit my concept. Martial Advancements are pretty broad as well and give a lot of options.
Personally I think Arcane and Divine Archetypes suffer from being ‘too restrictive’ in their character building abilities rather than Expert being too broad. Every Arcane has the same skills, Every Divine has mostly the same skills but they have at least some variety based upon their deity.
One thing I’m going to say and I’m sure it might start a debate is this: When you get right down to it, Experts have nothing going for them over any other Archetypes other than their versatility. Arcane and Divine are focused on Spells; Martial are focused on Combat Maneuvers. Experts have no ‘focus’ (which is by design) so their strength is in the ability to use the ‘Toys’ of the other Archetypes at a little less effectiveness or with fewer options. There are no special abilities (e.g. “Skill Tricks”) for Experts (Though I’m working on a system like that it’s just slow going) so they just have to pick from the abilities generally reserved for the other Archetypes to build their concepts.
Let’s also be honest, when it comes to combat, Spells and powerful Combat Maneuvers are really how fights are won. I can’t remember a fight that was won with a well timed “Larceny Roll” or a life-saving “Persuasion” check. Now, combat is not the only thing the game is about, obviously, but it’s a rather large part of the campaign.
There’s also the problem of outside of combat, where I would expect Skills to really shine. Experts can generally raise a lot of skills really high. That’s great! However, the other Archetypes have plenty enough skills to be very useful in a few focused areas. Arcane are great at Lore, Stealth and Deceit. Divine are great at Social Skills and a wide range of others. Martial are great at Physical skills. So, that leaves only a few skills where Experts excel that another Archetype doesn’t. I have lost count at how many tables I’ve been at where even though I have the +12 to Persuasion, +12 Stealth, and +12 Athletics, and +12 Larceny, there’s a Divine Character just as good at social, an Arcane just as good at sneaking (or better with spells), or a Martial just as good at climbing that cliff as I am. The few skills where Experts have few equals aren’t used a lot in adventures. You don’t need to have 3 people all greet the visiting Emissary with their great persuasion and etiquette rolls, or 3 people to jump the chasm to tie the rope to the other side…unfortunately it doesn’t always fall to the Expert to really shine in those areas they are designed to shine. Therefore, we have to pick abilities from the other Archetypes to be competitive and feel useful.
John
April 2, 2015 at 6:56 pm #266956AnonymousInactiveThe more I think of it, the more I think I’ve figured out why I don’t like the Expert archetype:
It breaks the game.
Not ‘breaks’ as in makes the game unplayable, but breaks the game balance in that every archetype should be balanced. Personally, I think Martial, Divine, and Arcane are reasonably balanced to each other
There are multiple ways to improve the game balance of each of the Archetypes. In all cases it boils down to ensuring that there is enough special foo of whatever type to entice people to play it over other build choices. Adding the option to select 2 Martial Techniques as an advancement option brought the Martial more into parity with the other archetypes. That advancement option makes it harder for a non-Martial character to keep up. Not impossible as I described in another thread, but harder. And that’s an option that goes past character creation. Both of the key extra Arcane and Divine advancements are skills based limiting their usefulness over the Expert’s focused advancements.
If the Arcane archetype granted access to a Talent – tiered or base that made casting with subtlety easier, that would be significant if only they could get it. As another example it could be that with a given tiered talent, it’s no longer Limited if you’re archetype X, but it remains Limited requiring additional Paths for further progression or to unlock the Unlimited version.
Perhaps it’s slightly different. Perhaps each Archetype gets 1 or a choice of a few Tiered talents that they automatically gain the benefit of as they go up in Tier without expending a Talent to get it. Something like this would grant effectively 4 extra talents over a character’s lifetime, so overall balance would need to be reviewed. I’d also put requirements in similar to weapon tricks that you must still meet certain criteria in order to access that next tier. I realize that this is what the choose any 2 (Skill, Combat, Arcane, Devout) talents are intended to do. Perhaps that just gets emphasized a bit more or it becomes 3 talents instead of 2.
Otherwise make requirements for Paths or Talents something that play more specifically to the strengths of the Archetype. It could even be as generic as Prestidigitation, ASC II and 3 other Arcane Talents. Possible for a non-Arcane archetype to get, but more challenging.
Just some thoughts.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
April 2, 2015 at 8:16 pm #266960AnonymousInactiveTo my mind, arcane and divine are clumsy/poor compared to martial and expert because of their skill advancement. Experts can advance any skills (3+passive logic) they want with one advancement. Martial can advance their primary skill (attack) as well as any other combat or physical skills (#+ passive logic) in one advancement. Arcane and divine have to advance their primary skill (casting) along with two associated skills as one step (so just 3 skills), and then another to advance their other option (3+ passive logic lore/social). I think that arcane and divine would be a long sight better if instead of having those two different skill advancement options at each tier, they just had one that said, “Gain 1 Rank in a number of Trained skills equal to 3 + passive Logic to be selected from the following: casting, X (deceit/know rel), Y (stealth/god’s skill), and social (for divine)/lore (for arcane) skill.” It means they would get less total skills possible per tier, but it would be massively more useful because they could get several more in just one grab – just like experts and martials do.
April 3, 2015 at 3:36 am #266976AnonymousInactiveI agree with toodeep’s suggestion (and agree it would improve arcane/divine).
April 8, 2015 at 7:01 pm #267194AnonymousInactivesorry, made a couple mistakes
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1b53XUv … =send_form
Just a bump to this. Come on I know there are more than just 35 people playing Arcanis on these boards!
April 8, 2015 at 7:47 pm #267196AnonymousInactiveWell I can think of three people alone in our area who play Arcanis and have no presence at all on these boards. One has no access to the Internet and other two don’t take or have the time to keep up with the boards the way some of us do. I will see if I can get them to post.
April 8, 2015 at 8:36 pm #267197AnonymousInactiveI think there’s something like 15-20 Arcanis players in this area (active to varying degrees). I’m pretty sure at least 11 have no presence on these boards (I know little about the other group as they have been playing together a long time – I know at least one of them is on the boards but I don’t see him post much). I’m pretty sure none of my 5 players have created accounts on here (and are unlikely to play Arcanis outside of me running them through the mods).
April 8, 2015 at 8:37 pm #267198AnonymousInactiveWell, please pass on the link to the poll to those who aren’t on the boards! I’ve posted it a couple times on my personal Facebook as well as the old ArcaniCon FB page and on G+, though relatively few people who aren’t on the forums here will have seen either.
- AuthorPosts
- The forum ‘Arcanis: Players Commons’ is closed to new topics and replies.