Archetypes, Backgrounds, Spell Casting & Balance (was Poll)

Eric,

Thanks for the thoughtful and humerous response. I have a limited amount of time for a response at the moment, so let me hit just a couple of things.

I have concerns that, especially as we go up into higher tiers, that the repeated ability to make an attack with (advanced) martial techniques followed by an advanced spell will be unbalanced vs. other combat options. The recovery and strain will bleed off as Expert Archetype casters cycle back and forth. Other archetypes will have to wrestle with recovery or strain reducing their combat effectiveness.
Hopefully I’m not taking too many liberties with the above non-quote.

More or less accurate. I would expect that an AoE or status spell or something would land first before following up with a powerful martial attack, such that minions are cleared, the big bad guy is thrown off balance or whatnot. A caster with full ranks invested should have a good chance of landing their initial shot. Follow that with a powerful Martial attack, rinse, repeat. A good Martial Attack doesn’t necessarily require a lot of investment. Forward Stance + Mighty Swing is a 1 talent investment. For a -1 to hit the character is doing d (d) +d4+5 +1 for a good or better weapon. An extra +6 damage is nothing to sneeze at and that’s not including the Forward Stance. The fact that you’ve got max ranks makes the forward stance feasible, where it won’t be as useful to characters getting only 2 ranks/tier in a melee attack. They’ll really need that extra +1 to hit.

I don’t know if this will be true or not. I do believe (strongly) that its not true at Tier 1 or 2. My crusade character Eisener was the Martial archetype and vastly more dangerous than Tukufu in combat.

I’ve played with Tukufu. He is absolutely an asset in combat. He may not do as much damage as Eisener, but he’s valuable to have there. So he contributes. Now, look at outside of combat.

Tukufu has a bunch of skills and spells that can be used in a wide variety of situations. He’s not an Ambassador for nothing, right? Is Eisener likely based on his mechanics to be tapped to do much outside of combat? Does he scout, is he a face, does he have a bunch of lore skills? There are many players such as the two of us that will find ways to keep being involved in a game and story regardless of whether we have the mechanics to back it up. It may simply be roleplaying or brainstorming, but that’s who we are. There are other players who are fairly quiet at the table and won’t speak up unless it’s an area of specialty for them.

Tukufu will certainly make his mark outside of combat and have his time to shine for how he’s built. If Eisener and Tukufu were both available for the same combat or participating in the same combat would the table take extra notice of what Eisener contributed over Tukufu? Never having seen either build, that’s not a question I can answer.

But I certainly noticed the advantages of building such a character (that could cycle between an advanced manuever and an advanced spell) and Tukufu is definitely headed in that direction. If its nice enough that it stands out to me as a really good option then I’m willing to at least think that it might be too good.

But in other places you’ve also said that casters can launch their best spell time and again through strain…through eating some damage, or delaying the strain or using fate to wipe their strain. I expect high level casters will be better at this than low level ones. I also expect that high level martial characters will be able to add enough things like stances, murderous precision & the perfect cut to keep up even on their off attacks.

At mid to high tiers I expect the big spells will likely be speed 5 or 6 with all the adaptations applied. A caster with delay strain and a willingness to spend 1 Fate Point could go through 24 ticks of combat without doing anything more than launching big spell after big spell. When my group playtested high level combats, the combats never got past tick 15. I expect that will change, but being able to go through 2 turns of the clock with virtually no strain management required is big. Or they can intersperse physical attacks, Leadership or similar actions.

I expect Avalanche and similar runes may be used though it’s hard to say if they get dropped with the big attack or saved for the follow up. There should be some bonus damage, but not likely significant. Or at least not above and beyond what they would always get through wolf pack and advanced tactics for example.

Murderous precision requires Waylay and doesn’t make sense thematically for a lot of builds. It requires surprise or tactical edge against a humanoid target. It’s no longer useful against animals and other creatures. There are a number of ways to avoid granting tactical edge, and I expect higher level targets may have that. It’s Passive Insight in additional damage if it’s not an outright kill usable 1/scene.

I’m not sure how much stance dancing characters will do. I expect people build around 1 stance rather than multiple, but I haven’t looked at them too much.

Gotta run for now.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

Interesting take on this. I decided on Martial for Ursula because I knew I would be wearing heavy armor (being the tank as it were I expected to get hit), and thus needed/wanted Advanced Armor Training. I don’t intend to master more than the Tralian Hammer, but do intend to be fairly proficient in the broadword, unarmed combat and my pistol. I will also be taking a fair amount of martial techniques. So Martial seems a good choice.

Now the “archaeologist” build (think Arcanis Indiana Jones—Or should that be “Altherian val’Abebi ) I would think works best as an Expert, to get the breadth of skills required. I can still get the side sword I want and use of the pistol if I take say the Shining Patrol background. Never be good as a martial duellist I imagine but I would hope I could hold my own in a fight.

Somebody check my math on this, but John mentioned 5-6 skills per Tier for an Expert. I may be missing something but you can take +1 to all trained skills, +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to any skills, and +1 to 3+Passive Logic Value to a selected list of skills. That’s 3 ranks so far. You might be able to pick up a rank from a Path if your lucky and maybe a point or 2 from some other advancement (at work without books). But it seems like that’s shorting other vital things like increasing defenses, attibutes and talents. Those who know me know I’m a big fan of the balanced character who can contribute in and out of combat. To me the best advancement scheme for any character per tier is like this (when you take them is up to you):

+1 to all Trained skills
+2 to all defenses
a Path if one is desired
+1 to 2 Attributes
+1 to 2 Attributes (different)
Any two Talents you qualify for
Any two Talents based on Archetype (2 Learn Martial Techniques for the fighter for example)
+1 to 3+Passive Logice Value skills (any)
+1 to 3+Passive Logic Value skills (based on archetype)
+1 to the 3 skills for the Archetype (Arcane/Divine)

This seems like a logical package of advancements to me. If somebody had a better one let me know so I can take advantage of it.

I’ve also poured many hours of analysis into Arcanis mechanics (it’s part of how I learn a new system) and I fall much closer to John’s view than to yours.

Great! Please post the analysis.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

From talking with Paul and listening to others, there appears to be two general lines of discussion going on in parallel.

1) Magic is more powerful than martial maneuvers/fighting styles. It’s hard to refute this at a large scale, but in general, it is something that almost every system has struggled with. I think D&D 4e was one of the few systems that really balanced the two in terms of ‘scale’. Regardless of how you viewed the game, it was clear that a magic using character and a fighter had powers that were a lot more close in power than most other games. Outside of a few spells that really just can’t be duplicated by mundane means without a huge suspension of disbelief (Teleportation, Invisibility, etc.), the disparity between damage, status effects, and affecting multiple targets really shrunk in that edition.

In Arcanis, the combat maneuvers and fighting styles for higher tiers really need some improvement to apply more status effects/debuffs or do more damage. Combined with the maneuvers that target multiple creatures could really go a long way towards this.

In addition, I think Martial Characters (and Martial Only) should have more options such as maneuvers or Talents to let them delay or reduce recovery on maneuvers. My other post has a proposal for a unique Talent given to Martials that reduces Recovery on Advanced Maneuvers by 1 for Martial Characters. Also I assume that casters know that they can’t Delay Strain over and over again and after the first use have to do something else, cast through it (taking damage) or spend Fate to remove it?

2) The second issue being discussed appears to be whether Experts are overpowered with the ability to take the same Combat options as a Martial or gain casting like an Arcane/Divine. That’s the one I’d like to address with some character building examples.

ASSUMPTIONS:
A) For simplicity, I’m not taking into consideration Race, Nation or Path specifics that would give Talents or Melee, Ranged, or Arcanum Skills. Those are so varied special cases that should augment a core Archetype / Background build.
B) I’m assuming a stat of 5 (d8) in a secondary ability and 7 (d10) in a primary ability, regardless of combat or casting.
C) I’m assuming a character will Max out the Skills needed for their role (Arcanum, Melee, Ranged) or those given by advancements to really focus
D) I’m limiting Background choices to those that even improve casting or combat, since that’s the main focus of the comparison.
E) I’m considering only the “Any 2 Talents”, “+1 to All Trained Skills”, and “+1 to 3+Passive Logic Trained Skills (using 6 skills)” Advancements. Variations are possible for specialized builds.

ARCANE CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Arcane Spell Casting I
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 2 Weapon Training
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells
Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Deceit, Stealth, 2 Lore Skills. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: Arcane Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Arcanum Talent per Tier
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Stealth, Deceit, 3 Lore Skills (They get more Lore Skills with the advancement but can’t keep them all maxed)
Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Lore Skill.

Summary: An Arcane Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Arcanum Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Stealth, Deceit, and 2 Lore Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier
– Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Lore Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.

DIVINE CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Prestidigitation / Divine Spell Casting I
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Deity), Weapon Training (Deity)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Spells: 5 Universal Spells, 5 Tier I Spells
Maxed Skills: Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 1 Combat Skill, 1 Social Skill. This leaves 1 other skill to keep Maxed based upon other character goals.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: Divine Spell Casting II/III/IV/V and 1 Devout Talent per Tier
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Arcanum, Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, 3 Social Skills
Variation: In order to increase a combat skill at 2 Ranks / Tier, the caster needs to make a tradeoff by losing a Maxed Social Skill. However, due to having a Combat Skill from archetype and the appropriate background, it’s easy for a Divine Character to keep a Combat Skill at roughly 2.5 Ranks / Tier (12 Ranks over 5 Tiers)

Summary: A Divine Caster gets Full Casting (Tier I-V), 5 Devout Talents to enhance casting, and Maxed Arcanum Skill (3 / Tier). In addition, they can have Knowledge (Religion), Deity Skill, and 2 Social Skills maxed (3 / Tier) along with a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier
– Combat Capabilities: Now has full, flexible casting and a Combat Skill at 2.5 Ranks / Tier, potentially Medium or Heavy Armor, and can get Weapon Mastery (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Social Skills they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for more combat skill ranks.

EXPERT CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Adaptable (Most choose this), 1 Skill Talent
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (Light), 3 Weapon Training (2 Nation / 1 Any)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Maxed Skills: Any 6 non-Combat/non-Arcanum Skills (Arcanum/Combat only with Adaptable).

Advancements
Fixed Talents: 2 Skill Talents
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): Any 6 Skills
Variations:
A) Combat Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat, they will need to dedicate 1 Talent / Tier to Weapon Mastery (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to a Combat Skill. Obviously, focusing on more than 1 weapon takes additional Talents and Skills.
B) Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill.
Both of these options leave 1 Talent / Tier to spend on non-Skill Talents and 5 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. The character can have the basics of either combat or casting, keeping maxed skills but lacking the extra Talents that go to really expanding the casting options of the Caster or the combat flexibility of the Martial.
A+B) Combat Focus with Magic Focus: If an Expert wants to focus on combat and casting, they will need to dedicate 2 Talents / Tier to Weapon Mastery and Spell Casting and 2 Skills / Tier to the appropriate Arcanum and Combat Skills.
This option leaves only 2 Skill Talents / Tier and 4 Maxed Skills for rounding out the skill portion of the character. While the character has the basics of both combat and magic, they differ from a Caster learning Combat or a Martial learning magic by 1 Skill Rank / Tier in the associated combat or casting skill.

Summary: Experts focus on Combat can keep 1 Combat Skill maxed and gain Weapon Mastery (I-V) with 1 weapon without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. Those who focus on Magic can keep 1 Arcanum Skill maxed and gain Spell Casting (I-V) without impacting their usefulness as Skill characters. In either situation the character is as competent as either a Caster or Martial but lacks the breadth and flexibility of either. The Expert can gain that flexibility but at the cost of talents and/or skills devoted to being a better skill character.
– Duel Focus: Experts can focus on both Combat and Casting wit Weapon Mastery (I-V) and Spell Casting (I-V) but at the cost of using all the non-Skill Talents and 2 Skills / Tier. This will impact their usefulness as Skill characters and does not give them the breadth or flexibility of either option. This type of build has the same capabilities as a Martial Archetype taking casting, or a Caster Archetype taking combat but is 1 Rank / Tier ahead of those builds.

MARTIAL CHARACTERS
Character Generation (Tier 1.0)
Core Talents: Advanced Armor Training and 2 of Die Hard, Leadership, or a Martial Technique
Combat Talents: Armor Proficiency (All Nation, ~8), Weapon Training (All Nation, ~12)
Extra Talents: 3 Talents (Can be used to focus on enhancing casting or combat)
Combat: 1-2 Maneuvers, 1-2 Weapon Mastery I
Maxed Skills: 6 Combat or Physical Skills, and potentially Heal.

Advancements
Fixed Talents: 2 Martial Techniques and 2 Combat Talents
Any 2 Talents: Can be used for anything.
Maxed Skills (3 Ranks / Tier): 6 Combat or Physical Skills
Variation:
A) Magic Focus: If a Martial wants to focus on magic, they will need to dedicate at least 1 starting Talent to Prestidigation and 1 Talent / Tier for Spell Casting (I-V) and 1 Skill / Tier to an Arcanum Skill. This leaves 1 Talent / Tier for anything, and 5 Skills for Combat or Physical Skills. The Arcanum will be 1 Rank / Tier behind a full caster or Expert choosing casting. This should be sufficient for many good buff spells or base spells.

Summary: A Martial Character easily can get 1 Weapon Mastery (I-V), 10 Maneuvers, and a Fighting Style (I-V) over 5 Tiers. This leaves 10 Talents to further enhance combat or devote to skills or magic.
– Magic Capabilities: Now has full, flexible combat maneuvers with several weapons and an Arcanum Skill at 2 Ranks / Tier and can get full Spell Casting (Tier I-V) and that leaves 5 Talents for augmenting Skills, particularly those Physical or Combat they are maxxing. The right background, race, and path can allow for additional non-combat skill ranks.

——

Whew, I hope this all makes sense. I think there is room to give each Archetype something ‘special’ and limited that other Archetypes can’t poach. I also think Magic right now overshadows combat at the higher tiers. However, I don’t feel that the Expert archetype is the ‘god’ it is sometimes made out to be. They are flexible, yes, but that flexibility means they can’t be as fully capable in either magic or combat like those archetypes can.

I’m open to discussion around what I’ve posted and hope that my analysis is at least factual.

John

I thought Sabbatical was banned or at least restricted???

For some reason I thought they both were. My bad. Considering there are 31 pages of Errata and Clarifications sometimes I miss things.