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- January 31, 2014 at 1:27 am #150645AnonymousInactive
“Effect:Practitioners of the Primal ways become a bridge between the mortal and spiritual realms. You can call upon these sprits to grant you a boon; this boon takes the shape a single spell from the Corpus, Illusions, or Control Traditions. For the next 24 hours you may cast that spell as a primal spell.”
What are the limitations on the range of commune with spirits? I know it is limited by tier (so you can’t take a spell above your casting tier). But can you take spells that require knowledge of base spells, such as “Puppet Master” once you are tier III, even though you can’t possibly know “puppet master” and “enemy of my enemy” at the same time?
What about in the control tradition? Can you take the psionic and elder spells, like mind lock and empathic link? Obviously you are neither of those, but unless you can you are missing half that tradition’s spell options. Who knows what the “Spirits” can do….
January 31, 2014 at 2:12 am #256079AnonymousInactiveWEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLL thats a tough question.
Let me split that up into some smaller questions?
Can I get spells that are specific to Psionic or elder traditions ?
Can I get spells that have other spells as prerequisites ?other relevant questions
Can I get spells higher than Tier 1?
SO the arguments i could see on this:
Psionic or Elder traditions, on one hand they are Pre requsites, on the other hand commune with spirits is already breaking the rules.
I personally think probably not.
spells with other spells with pre requistes, same argument, but there is less to support the “already breaking the rules” argument
I would guess this is very likely not.
Spells Higher than Tier 1, on one hand the other unique spells all operate at tier one level
on the other hand it doesnt say otherwise?My guess is maybe/probably? call it 65% of the judges will allow it
January 31, 2014 at 3:25 am #256081AnonymousInactiveI hadn’t thought about it that way yet, but yeah it is certainly very powerful. I read it as pretty wide open that you can have any 1 spell (this would include a higher tier spell as written, but that would be useless since you couldn’t cast it). Keep in mind it still takes you 1 hr to cast commune and you cast it as a primal spell so any special adaptations for source can’t be used.
January 31, 2014 at 4:32 am #256083AnonymousInactiveMy take would be that you definitely can use spells of tier > 1. I’m less clear on psionic and elder-only spells – I could see this either way. I would say very unlikely on spells that require other spells (but I can see the arguments to allow it).
I see Commune with Spirits as potentially more powerful than the other unique spells but it definitely requires more foresight (it’s not like you can go off for an hour in the middle of combat to learn something useful).
January 31, 2014 at 1:53 pm #256088AnonymousInactiveOne thing to keep in mind is how Primal magic is described. The caster doesn’t “cast” the spells. He gets the spirits to generate the effect for him. The 1hr casting time is the negotiation and delivery of what the spirit wants and the Spell learned is the spirit performing the effect. That is how I see it getting around requirements and such as the spirit who is generating it can have the requirements.
All of that said it is a game and I won’t be too distraught if they put some restrictions on the spell to keep it in line with others.
January 31, 2014 at 6:25 pm #256096AnonymousInactiveI hadn’t thought about it that way yet, but yeah it is certainly very powerful. I read it as pretty wide open that you can have any 1 spell (this would include a higher tier spell as written, but that would be useless since you couldn’t cast it). Keep in mind it still takes you 1 hr to cast commune and you cast it as a primal spell so any special adaptations for source can’t be used.
As for your take on it being a primal spell so you can’t use any special adaptations for source, I would disagree. It specifies that you can choose one spell from one of three traditions. If I choose alter appearance from the corpus tradition, I would allow corpus adaptations to the spell, but obviously not psionic ones, because that is not the tradition to which you had access when you cast it.
January 31, 2014 at 6:31 pm #256097AnonymousInactiveBut you are NOT getting it through the Corpus Tradition. You are gaining it through Commune with Spirits. You are not trained in Corpus, and therefore could not gain the benefits of that tradition. Similarly, if you take a Control spell that has unique Psion and Elder powers, you would get neither of them because the source of your spell is not Psionic or Elder.
The issue here is in the details, and by my read Commune with Spirits gives you access to a SPELL in one of these three traditions, but it does not mean that you have access to those Traditions or the key sources, so you do not qualify for any of the ‘unique’ adaptations or abilities.
January 31, 2014 at 7:48 pm #256100AnonymousInactiveBut you are NOT getting it through the Corpus Tradition.
Agreed, but you are specifically getting a spell from the corpus tradition. The tradition source has been specified, and thus I think the tradition option are inherent in the language. If it had just said, “you get alter appearance” without a tradition specified, than I would agree that you wouldn’t get tradition adaptations.
January 31, 2014 at 8:29 pm #256102AnonymousInactiveI dont think you would get any of the tradition specific adaptations, the source changes to primal according to the text of commune
January 31, 2014 at 8:39 pm #256103AnonymousInactiveI think that this is where our opinions diverge, Sir toodeep, because my read of the text tells me fairly clearly you do not get the tradition. The text of the spell Commune with Spirits says:
. . . this boon takes
the shape a single spell from the
Corpus, Illusions, or Control
Traditions.It does not say that “You gain access to the Corpus, Illusions, and Control Traditions and the ability to cast one spell from one of these three traditions for 24 hours”, it simply says you gain access to a single spell from the tradition. Because there is a VERY long list of spells in those three traditions, it makes much more sense from a word count perspective to just say “You can choose a single spell from the list provided later in this document” rather than individually listing each out.
That said, while you get to choose a single spell from Corpus, Illusions, or Control, none of those Traditions are playable for Primals. In fact, that is one of the core concepts of their casting options. As such, you gain access to one of these spells through a SPELL, not through the base tradition. Your “Tradition” for the spell gained is “Commune with Spirits” because you have not received training or access to the actual tradition that they originally came from. The metanarrative reason for Tradition, Path, or any other special adaptation is that by learning that spell through that method, you are taught new ways of manipulating it. It is the same concept as a Secret or Exotic spell. Since you do not have this training, but simply gain the power by selling your soul to a quasi-divine being, you do not have access to this special training.
I could be wrong, and if so I’m sorry, but my reading of the text does not support the argument that you ‘gain the tradition along with the spell.’
January 31, 2014 at 8:52 pm #256104AnonymousInactiveI recommend getting an official ruling on this. It had been covered on the old site, but apparently didn’t make the transition.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
January 31, 2014 at 11:58 pm #256113AnonymousInactiveI recommend getting an official ruling on this. It had been covered on the old site, but apparently didn’t make the transition.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
Do you recall the gist of it?As to casting source It clearly states you cast it as a primal spell, so to me that means you aren’t casting it as a psionic, divine, elder, etc. Obviously those are off limits if you aren’t casting as that type of caster. I’m more on the fence on those that are tradition specific, but would lean towards not for game balance.
February 1, 2014 at 2:54 am #256117AnonymousInactiveMy recollection is that elder and psionic only spells weren’t available. I don’t recall if part of the underlying explanation was that the source was incompatible with the weilder or not. I believe the adaptations were fine again without those two sources. The question of Tier didn’t come up as it was the beginning of the campaign, so things like prerequisite spell components weren’t on the radar.
I certainly would recommend getting Pedro to weigh in. Even if my recollection is accurate from then, things have refined since then.
With a sweep of his hat,
Paul
February 1, 2014 at 3:24 am #256118AnonymousInactiveObviously those are off limits if you aren’t casting as that type of caster.
Obviously not obviously, though I agree we need a ruling to clarify.
February 1, 2014 at 4:20 am #256119AnonymousInactiveObviously those are off limits if you aren’t casting as that type of caster.
Obviously not obviously, though I agree we need a ruling to clarify.
That is linked to the line before it. If A then B.edit: after rereading what was said I think we are actually in agreement but talking past each other. I’m talking about source dependent adaptations, those that explicitly state Primal, Psionic, Sorc. Priest, etc and you were talking about Tradition specific ones. Those would still be valid because the spell is still of that tradition otherwise you couldn’t select it in the first place.
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