Dwarven Heartstone Question

I had hoped someone would take a stab at this. I am not really sure myself.

To be fair you’re usually one of the first ones to take a stab at these kinds of questions. Cody’s musings have been cut back since he joined the staff.

I agree it’s an artifact. The nature of the magic should be tied to the nature of Illir’s Curse. Without it, there would be no Heartstones. The closest spell effect to what happened to the giants is shapechange which is a Psionics only ability. Thought of in that way you could look at a soulstone as the mechanism for the psionic reduction with it needing periodic recharging from a central power source. It would be interesting to know if it radiates psionics, divine magic or both. It’s also curious to think about what they mean when you think about what happens to a dwarf when they step through a World Gate.

No one official, certainly. It is an interesting question though.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

::Hears his name on the wind. . . ::

I don’t believe that it has ever been stated if the Heartstones are psionic, but I think the issue is more complicated than that. Recall that the heartstones were created when Illiir Himself cursed the Celestial Giants. He got Beltine to block their souls from entering the Cauldron (or wherever else they may go), and when the Gods themselves speak and act, the forces at work may transcend what we consider to be magic and psionics.

We know that the Gods–at least of the Pantheon of Man–are able to have at least limited control over psionics, as their valinor imbued the ability to manipulate psionics upon the vals. We also know that Gods in general can pull the same trick, as Anshar Herself imbued the val’Inares and not a valinor. This means that at least SOME of their being is psionic in nature, so in this case, presumably at least some of the heartstone has a psionic nature.

If we were only talking about the ARG rules, the metaphysics at work makes this very simple as Psionics is but another Source of the Arcanum, just like Elder and Eldritch and Primal. 5e is more compliated because the mechanics at work are moving further and further away from traditional magic (like in the 3.5 days). That said, until it is corrected in forthcoming books or mods, psionics is simply another way to affect the Arcanum, and the Arcanum is simply the residual force of creation. As the most powerful beings of not-entropy in the universe (suggested by Illiir’s imperative to fight oblivion), it suggests that the Gods also gain their power from the Arcanum. It is possible that they may in fact be a force of the Arcanum itself, which means they can completely transcend the differences between these sources.

. . . and now for your regularly scheduled conspiracy theories

While we can see that the Arcanums are very different, with completely different practitioners. The gods themselves probably work with a more “pure” form of Arcanum manipulation. While Arcane Magic (and Psionics, to an extent) can be manipulated by the gods, it is primarily Divine magic being used by their servants, and we haven’t seen a Valinor use anything other than Divine Magic or Psionics, I imagine the Valinor of Sarish are able to use Arcane Magic. But for the most part, gods of anything other than a specific Arcanum utilize magic mortals cannot comprehend or control. They don’t “use” an Arcanum to focus the power of Creation, they directly manipulate it. Perhaps the prerequisite for godhood is the ability to manipulate Creation, rather than rely solely on magic used by mortals.

Well, if it is an artifact, maybe it plays by similar rules to the soulstones. Maybe the energy within it can be sealed, like how soulstones are sealed in the creation of certain psionic items, like the Screaming Sword.I doubt it. Just touching a hearthstone can kill someone who isn’t of the right ancestry. And a True Dragon apparently can’t damage one. I don’t see how mortals can monkey around with one. I expect would-be experimenters live very very brief lives.

Cody mentioned (!a post from Cody!) that the different styles of casting are all about different approaches to welding the arcanum (that modest corner of “magic” that mortals can manipulate with predictable results). If you produce result X, which then endures through time, when adventures show up years later, there may not be a way to guess how the original practitioner got to X. Like hey I found this magic sword. I wonder if it was made with sorcery, or something else? I believe you probably never get an answer to that question unless you find out who made it. Henry has said in THEORY all the different styles can get to the same outcomes and if you were sufficiently good at one style the “in game” walls that define traditions would begin to melt and you’d have sorcerers who could heal & all clerics might know a cant for Fireball. But in PRACTICE each corner of the Arcanum has been separately husbanding knowledge/reinventing wheels and has a somewhat unique collection of spells and tricks that all differ from all the others.

This is all different from bloodline powers, which while clearly magic, are not part of the arcanum. Although we have the example of the Bloodwar as a time when vals tried to tinker with their abilities, almost entirely the bloodline powers are immutable. They neither need husbanding nor are they expandable through normal invention. Though of course we have two examples of bloodline powers changing as a result of things happening on the level of Valinor and Deities (the val’Tensen & Reluctant no More, and the val’Abebi & the Blast)..

In that light its kinda odd that crystals with dwarves souls are semi equated with psionic powers. Thinking more on the topic I would assume that either (1) it just happens that they are simpatico with what psions are currently capable of doing or (2) that the psionic soul of the celestial giants is shining through.

This is all different from bloodline powers, which while clearly magic, are not part of the arcanum. Although we have the example of the Bloodwar as a time when vals tried to tinker with their abilities, almost entirely the bloodline powers are immutable. They neither need husbanding nor are they expandable through normal invention. Though of course we have two examples of bloodline powers changing as a result of things happening on the level of Valinor and Deities (the val’Tensen & Reluctant no More, and the val’Abebi & the Blast)..

Let’s not forget that the Elementalist and Mendicant of the Aspect Traditions exist for the Elorii, so they have found how to utilize their Bloodrank as a source of their power for their Sorcery. So while Bloodline Powers are separate from the Five Major Arcanum, it can still interact with them. While the Val and Havili have not achieved an equal level of mastery and control over their Bloodline Powers, it can be assumed that similar traditions are possible.

Also,

I have always been interested in seeing someone attempt to burn someone else’s soul for a conversion to undead (instead of their own), thus creating an intelligent undead with a soul. Something that might be possible if a particularly creative necromancer got a hold of a soul shard or two.

I’m very happy that someone else had that idea. It would be a hoot to watch the clergy of Beltine freak out over it. Reminds me of a similar idea of a “forced Kurenthe”, where an Elorii sacrifices the life essence of another creature to activate a Kurenthe, without needing to kill themselves.

Its very clear that the gods and/or Valinor can bestow the gift of undeath to a shell long after the soul is gone. See the Legion of the Black Sun. So its perfectly reasonable to assume that with sufficient power and knowledge one could become undead without destroying their soul.
It is documented in Arcanis that the soul is consumed in the creation of an undead and acts as the key component in the process. That would include every member of the Legion of the Black Sun. You could say they have been put into “stand by mode” when their Standard is not unfurled. Much like undead “sleeping” in their tombs until adventurers dare to enter.

I have always been interested in seeing someone attempt to burn someone else’s soul for a conversion to undead (instead of their own), thus creating an intelligent undead with a soul. Something that might be possible if a particularly creative necromancer got a hold of a soul shard or two.
This is an interesting theory I thought about before. I think though the soul would fight against it’s use, much like when a cleric casts Raise Dead, the soul can refuse to return to the body in 3.5 rules. If it was possible, why would undead want a soul? As far as we can tell the soul serves no purpose, and high ranking intelligent undead have lived prosperous lives in Cancari, and Coryan without souls for hundreds of years.

The Rule that the soul is used to fuel the transformation into (corporeal) undeath is certainly the normal status quo in Arcanis. I do not dispute that. But I think there are exceptions.

The Legion of the Black Sun, to my knowledge, was filled with living Nierite members during the First Imperium and was organized by the val’Virdan family just after the Bloodwar. At some point they were defeated/killed and ceased to be a unit. I don’t when that happened but, but the Ossarion War, the Collapse of the Theocracy and the fall of Manetas seem like plausible possiblities. A thousand years later their banner was rediscovered under as yet unrevealed circumstances. When then Emperor Quoran val’Dellenov refused to reinstate their banner and reconstitute the legion, many of them rose as undead, reclaimed their banner and marched north to their homeland in Canceri. Much of this is knowledge is based on the entry for their armor in Forged in Magic and the rest based on the special round adventure “Overdue” where Tukufu and other went to the Sea of Grass and briefly interacted with members of the Legion of the Black Sun. Tukufu found it hard to get info out of them. The one he talked to thought all “mouth breathers” are inferior to them. And that modern sates like Altheria are trivial things and perhaps degenerate when compared to the First imperium. While its not impossible that the undead had secretly been around for centuries and then reacted to an insult, as we currently know it looks like they rose 1000 years after their death long after their souls would have departed.

In addition to the Legion of the Black Sun there are a handful of PC certs that allow players to bring their old PCs back as undead characters. These characters, to my knowledge, didn’t spontaneously arise at death but arose after being dead in response to the coming of the Destroyer. If someone has one of those certs and would like to illuminate this I would be interested in what the text says..

So i think certain powerful actors (Valinor or Gods) within the world of Arcanis can create intelligent corporeal undead without using the soul as a component of that process. I assume its their deific efforts and energies that are expended instead. Are there ways for mortals to do an end run around using their souls to become undead? At present we don’t know of any.