Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 31 total)
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  • #277906
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Love a good discussion.
    That is very cool that you played a special module “Overdue”. I would love to learn more about when that took place in game time. I’ve never heard of it before.

    I agree there are unique situations of people turning into the undead, but they follow the rules as we are aware of them.

    We all agree the standard method of being undead, is a caster of Arcane or Diving magic casts a spell on a recently deceased body (before the soul goes to the Cauldron), and the target’s souls is consumed as fuel for the transformation to undeath. This process can be copied into items, like staves, wands, and 1 time use items, like what happened to Elandre val’Assante’s father, and by Val Bloodlines.

    I postulate that at the time of death the soul of a Legionnaire, sworn to the Standard of the Black Sun, is destroyed and their body is converted to undeath by the Standard itself. Also this did not happen to all souls, only those that died during and after it was converted to it’s dark twisted form. Any legionnaire that died while the standard was white and pure, I would guess did not rise from the grave.
    Therefore the creation of the undead legion is not divine intervention, and souls are not taken years after death from the Cauldron, but follows the rules of undeath we are aware of, and the Standard acts as the spell trigger item.

    The Standard of the Black Sun also came into play during the BI Fire, Blood & Death during the 3.5 days. That is where my information came from.
    According to The Theocracy of Canceri page 16.

    In recognition of this act of faith, Patriarch-Emperor Calcestus even sent a gift north to the Autocrat; the Standard of the Legion of the Black Sun. But the gift never arrived, as the Inquisition force escorting the Standard was ambushed by Dark Triumvirate forces just inside the city walls. The Standard was claimed and taken to Palic and Eremis.
    At Sunset both sides were surprised when the Legion of the Black Sun itself arrived. the undead army marched its way up to the Corpse Gate of Nishanpur and Palic ordered the gate open. As he bore their standard, he expected the eternal forces to join the battle on his side. This was not the case. When the gate was opened, the legion marched against those that held their standard. Their only goal was to reclaim what was rightly theirs, The standard was hastily disassembled, and the legion fought back from the gates, barely.

    I have to admit I misremembered the quote and got the wrong idea. I thought the Legion arose because the Standard was assembled and being used, and then they returned to rest after it was disassembled. I had no idea a Legion of undead wander the country side. It does show unless they have spies in the Grand Coryan, they have a magical connection to the Standard itself. As they were aware it moved from Coryan to Canceri, and took the opportunity to retrieve it for themselves.

    I’d be hesitate to mention the Kickstarter cert Chosen of Neroth because the easy answer is it works because someone paid money and PCI said it works.
    But there is another unique example in-game. I recall the tale where a dragon was converted to a dracolich after swallowing the Mercy of Neroth (who was wielding Neroth’s own Scythe in battle). Does the dragon still have it’s soul? Was the Valinor/divine item consumed as the fuel in place of the dragon’s own soul? Could you cut open the dragon remove the Scythe/Valinor and the dragon would revert back, or die? I mean he would have a big hole in chest at the point.
    This a clear example of something special going on. But at the same time it could also follow the rules we are aware of. Maybe the dragon’s soul was still consumed as fuel for the transformation, and the Valinor/divine item was used as the spell trigger.

    #277907
    frootsnax
    Participant

    The results of Overdue were written up in Tukufu’s Letters somewhere near the back of the entries. It’s from one of the special kickstarter tables. The very short version is that we got hired by (imo) shady characters who desired revenge on the Legion of the Black Sun and thought that they were exploring the vast grasslands for loot. Tukufu never bought into that but was curious enough to go look what they were up to. I wrote up almost everything the rest of the party would let me. The adventure took place in the same year that we had the BI set in the First City, and the arrival of Calemnon…so its a few (four?) years past.

    Speaking of the Legion of the Black Sun … onto souls and undead!
    As many of us know, the magic item write ups in Forged in Magic are a guerrilla history course of Onara for the curious. This is the history section of the Lorica of the Black Sun (under cursed armors):This lorica armor was once worn by the members of the Legion of the Black Sun during the age of the Imperium of Man. Not much is known of this legion other than the fact that they were dedicated to the gods Nier, the lord of flaming destruction and Neroth, whose domain was death. While a few scroll fragments speak of their heroism in certain military engagements, not much else is known and they eventually faded into obscurity.

    Millennia later, in the year 769 I.C., a retired legionnaire discovered their lost legion standard and attempted to have the legion reconstituted as part of the legions of the Coryani Empire. Unfortunately, this occurred during the rebellion of the Canceri province, home to most the adherents to Nier and Neroth. In a fit of rage, the emperor refused to reinstate the legion and had the man who found the standard burnt alive. It is said that the gods were angered at this blatant disrespect and commanded the long dead legionnaires of the Black Sun to rise from their graves and take up arms once more; this time against the Coryani Empire. That seems pretty clear to me that people believe these legionaries became undead long after their soul departed. Hence in at least some extra-ordinary circumstances you can become an intelligent undead w/o burning your own soul.

    The story of Palic and the Legion was unknown to me, but fits pretty well with what I know of the Legion of the Black Sun. They are an obsessive bunch, though what it is they are obsessive over is still not something we know yet. They don’t think that highly of the living or the current political situation, and mostly keep to themselves. I can tell you that they are based in Canceri and continue to have what a I would call a formal, if prickly, relationship with Hegrish the Dark Apostate. There is someone like an ambassador that serves as liaison between them. If the person who holds it isn’t undead, then that job probably sucks. Henry said that the Legion came to the defense of Canceri when Milandir invaded after the Infants Sleep but haven’t been part of any Cancerese invasions going the other way. Mostly they keep to themselves and occasionally make someone “disappear.”

    Last bit of trivia I have about them: many of them are psions.

    #277908
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    This is an interesting theory I thought about before. I think though the soul would fight against it’s use, much like when a cleric casts Raise Dead, the soul can refuse to return to the body in 3.5 rules. If it was possible, why would undead want a soul? As far as we can tell the soul serves no purpose, and high ranking intelligent undead have lived prosperous lives in Cancari, and Coryan without souls for hundreds of years.

    Oh, I think this is almost certainly the case. I think to use a soul such you would certainly need to have its permission, which is why it has never happened and would be very difficult to have happen. But I could see someone particularly evil trying to torture some souls into being willing to do it just to end their suffering, or maybe someone sure they will have a very bad afterlife being willing to burn their soul instead of going to face eternal justice. I know the souls of at least some of the dwarves in Tultipet’s vault of soul shardes were so burned by the dragon fire that it caused them to go insane with pain and actually start to wander around and attack people. It’s possible a soul in such a state might welcome the oblivion of consumption rather than continue in its current state, and it might even be a kind act!

    #277909
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    That seems pretty clear to me that people believe these legionaries became undead long after their soul departed. Hence in at least some extra-ordinary circumstances you can become an intelligent undead w/o burning your own soul.

    I can see why one would come to that conclusion, and you may be right. But there are 2 points that don’t add up with the “long dead” rising.
    1) …however since that fateful day when Lothurus Metados val’Virdan rose upon his pier and left his execution to lead the Legion of the Black Sun, the standard has changed.
    This matches your quote about what happened to the person who found the standard in 769 I.C. So are you saying that the troops are ancient and the General is from 769 I.C? That seems like an odd mix.
    2) What happened to Lothurus’s 1000 troops? I recall it being stated that for a Legion reconstituted a person would have to gather 1000 troops under the standard and then present the legion to the Emperor. As we know Lothurus did attempt to present the Legion and was burned for it. So what happened to his troops. I can’t recall the source of that info. But I can search for it, through my records.

    I believe that it is more likely, that Lothurus’s Legion of the Black Sun, is made up of the troops from his time, 769 I.C. It makes more sense that the troops he gathered before presenting the legion would follow him, rather than people who died 1000 years before, and don’t even know him. The “long dead” troops would have rather followed their own General from their own time. Either Lothurus’s troops were killed along with him (the Emperor wouldn’t have allowed 1000 Canceri troops to remain gathered and be a threat to him), or they died in the following years and as each troop died they rose into undeath after Lothurus’ went back and continued to lead them.

    #277910
    drafit
    Participant

    I believe that it is more likely, that Lothurus’s Legion of the Black Sun, is made up of the troops from his time, 769 I.C. It makes more sense that the troops he gathered before presenting the legion would follow him, rather than people who died 1000 years before, and don’t even know him. The “long dead” troops would have rather followed their own General from their own time. Either Lothurus’s troops were killed along with him (the Emperor wouldn’t have allowed 1000 Canceri troops to remain gathered and be a threat to him), or they died in the following years and as each troop died they rose into undeath after Lothurus’ went back and continued to lead them.

    OK – There’s a bit to parse through here. As the Legion of the Black Sun is one of my favorites, I figured I’d chime in here.

    The minimum number of trained and equipped soldiers necessary for a legion to be recognized as such is one thousand. This is a bare minimum and most legions then swell up to many times that number as its prestige grows and people swarm to join it.

    The 1000 soldiers gathered by Lothurus were Coryani citizens, mostly Nierites and comprised of a smattering of val’Virdan, with the rest being human. When the emperor had his meltdown and ordered Lothurus burned alive, that still left 1000 armed soldiers just outside the gates of Grand Coryan. These soldiers were given a choice: either disband, be inducted into other legions (who were desperate for trained fighting men as the war against Khitan wasn’t going well) and a bag of coin as a bonus, or join their general on the pyre.

    One, in an act of defiance and devotion to Nier, threw himself on the pyre and burned along with his general. The other 999 legionnaires, possibly led by Player Characters, chose another path. They pledged their loyalty to the Empire, but chose to fight in the war as an unnamed and unrecognized legion. They never displayed a standard during their numerous engagements nor were their names ever recorded in the Roster of the Valorous. Yet their deeds are still told by legionnaires across campfires and from the lips of old veterans regaling their grandchildren with tales of heroism.

    Now, as to how the original legionnaires from the time of the Imperium of Man rose from their moldering graves in some lost catacombs beneath Ulfila (and what they were doing there in the first place?) is unknown. Since a soul is needed as a catalyst to create intelligent undead and the souls of these legionnaires have presumably gone on to either the Cauldron or the Paradise of the Gods long ago, how did they rise to take up arms against the Empire? Was it the curse of the Gods for the disrespect shown to Them by the Mad Emperor as many say, or was something else at play?

    I’ll give you a hint – something else was at play. \":-)\"

    I’ve enjoyed reading your conjectures about this topic and it has gotten my creative juices flowing. Since I moved the Soft Point originally scheduled for ArcanisCon 2020 over to Gen Con, I have an adventure slot to fill. I think maybe it’s time for the Legion of the Black Sun to make an appearance again.

    No promises, but a germ of an idea is forming. We’ll see what happens.

    Please keep discussing.

    #277911
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I’ll give you a hint – something else was at play. \":-)\"

    I’ve enjoyed reading your conjectures about this topic and it has gotten my creative juices flowing. Since I moved the Soft Point originally scheduled for ArcanisCon 2020 over to Gen Con, I have an adventure slot to fill. I think maybe it’s time for the Legion of the Black Sun to make an appearance again.

    Uh oh. Time to find somewhere to hide.

    #277912
    drafit
    Participant

    Uh oh. Time to find somewhere to hide.

    I don’t know. Even if you were invisible, they’d find you. \":-)\"

    #277913
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thank you Henry for sharing new information about the Legion of the Black Sun.
    A new adventure involving the Legion of the Black Sun would be really exciting.

    val Holryn you were correct. They were not raised the normal way. Ancient mysteries abound in Arcanis, it always feel good learning the answer to one of them.
    If someone mass raise dead a legion around 303 years ago, they must have had a reason.
    My first thought runs to a weapon. Undead, even intelligent ones, can be controlled. Perhaps when called they will answer the call of a master, and do as commanded. Perhaps in their approximate 300 of undeath they have already been used already.
    Perhaps a player with Blessed by Neroth, Chosen by Neroth, or a val’Mordane with the Bloodline power of being undead will have better chance of learning what they have been up to since being raised.

    #277914
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Last bit of trivia I have about them: many of them are psions.

    Makes you wonder how psionics works with undead when the supposed organ that gave them psionics may have long since rotted to dust.

    #277915
    drafit
    Participant

    Makes you wonder how psionics works with undead when the supposed organ that gave them psionics may have long since rotted to dust.

    That assumption is incorrect. If the undead val is Awakened, then that organ/gland/whatever-it-is doesn’t decay. That has to do with the essence of what psionics is, which will be explained in the write up about psionics in Codex of the Mind (forthcoming).

    #277916
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Makes you wonder how psionics works with undead when the supposed organ that gave them psionics may have long since rotted to dust.

    That assumption is incorrect. If the undead val is Awakened, then that organ/gland/whatever-it-is doesn’t decay. That has to do with the essence of what psionics is, which will be explained in the write up about psionics in Codex of the Mind (forthcoming).

    I initially assumed that undead retained psionics for plot convenience, but it’s nice to hear there will be a lore reason for it. It’s always nice to see PCI flesh out the little details.

    Also, can I go ahead and read the CotM? For research purposes, of course.

    #277917
    drafit
    Participant

    Also, can I go ahead and read the CotM? For research purposes, of course.

    Sure…if you backed the Arcanis 5E Campaign Setting Kickstarter you’ll get a copy of the PDF. It’s the 8th and final Stretch Goal achieved.

    #277918
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Sure…if you backed the Arcanis 5E Campaign Setting Kickstarter you’ll get a copy of the PDF. It’s the 8th and final Stretch Goal achieved.

    Unfortunately, I was unable to participate in the Kickstarter, as I had only started Arcanis 5e after it had released (first mod was the Siege of Entaris, actually). I will definitely buy the book on release, though.

    #277920
    frootsnax
    Participant

    Uh oh. Time to find somewhere to hide.
    I don’t know. Even if you were invisible, they’d find you. \":-)\"Uhh … Tukufu can claim to have bomb shelters in different cities. That was an add on for a kickstarter somewhere wasn’t it? Useful item? \":P\" Since a soul is needed as a catalyst to create intelligent undead and the souls of these legionnaires have presumably gone on to either the Cauldron or the Paradise of the Gods long ago, how did they rise to take up arms against the Empire? Was it the curse of the Gods for the disrespect shown to Them by the Mad Emperor as many say, or was something else at play?

    I’ll give you a hint – something else was at play. \":-)\"What? WHATS THAT YOU SAY? The common story retold is not the Gods truth in Arcanis!?! Sir I am shocked. Just shocked you would imply such an impiety. And us all on a public forum… \":P\" \":P\" \":P\"

    Well, more seriously that’s a genuinely interesting tidbit. Not sure how that puzzle piece fits into anything. I see a couple of options after ruminating on this but none of them immediately say “THIS” to me:

    Option #1: Vault is really right and somehow they were undead all along but only became active after being “insulted.” Solves the “soul mystery”, but doesn’t explain where they are and what they were doing. Or how they (must have) lost their standard. Or how they knew about what was happening in Coryani. I don’t like Option 1 without a lot more data.

    Option #2: Something big went down that raised them. In Eldest Sons we have the example of the lost val’Ossan navy that was turned into lacedons by the Kurenthe Curse in Seremas Harbor. The second worst thing to ever happen to Seremas. If so, we’re necessarily talking about something as big as the Kurenthe Curse and you would THINK it would have been noticed. “Hey dude, did see the mountain that blew up last night? No brah, was too busy watching the sky weep green fire.” Also super duper strange that it happens almost *exactly* at the same time that Quron val’Dellenov is insulting them/their standard. I don’t like this option either without a lot more data.

    Option #3: Based on prophesy, or forewarning of some kind, or just standard operating procedure the Legion of the Black Sun went into hibernation somewhere in Ufilia either as undead or with the intention to rise as undead. The conditions to reactivate were triggered when their standard got “looted” from their secret “hibernation pod” but they don’t reactivate fast enough to catch the looter and only learn about where the standard is later when everyone talks about what the Mad Emperor did. This is thin but at least it doesn’t need a lot more *something* to fill in giant holes that seem like deal breakers. It does beg the question of why they are hibernating? Are they on some kind of eternal guard duty and only check on things once a decade? (What are they guarding against?) Or did they know in advance they would be needed at some point to confront something. (And what is it?) Either would fit well with a bunch of OCD control freak obsessives… I do like this option. Doesn’t mean its true but i see promise on this line of thought.

    Option 4: Something I’m missing or something I don’t have enough pieces yet to see … always possible.

    #277927
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Uh oh. Time to find somewhere to hide.

    I don’t know. Even if you were invisible, they’d find you. \":-)\"

    Interesting. So the question becomes, what involvement/reason do the val’Cesari have to bring back the legion?

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