Religion, Churches, priests, and cants (redux)

The joys of the mechanics not exactly jiving with the narrative. . .

The way I figured it is that when a priest is learning their cants they only learn the Tier I cants, with more powerful ones being learned later. It is entirely possible to learn more (requiring more personal faith/charisma to cast), but from a mechanics = narrative perspective this is not reflected.

As the mechanics of it work right now, the “Church of Illiir via Xabal” is its own sect distinct from Milandir, Canceri, Coryan, Khitan, etc. However, for all intents and purposes a “Diminish Fatigue” taught by the Dark Triumvirate is identical to the one taught by the Mother Church of Coryan as they come from the same source. Any differences would be fairly minor (unlike similar cants for gods like Belisarda, Kassagore/Fire Dragon, etc), so technically a Bastionite could ‘pick up’ these cants from ‘Southron’ churches without too much trouble.

As for if there are any Bastionite Priests left, that is entirely possible. We know that one of the NPC’s that survived wasn’t a priest, but the others could be so this is another possible in-character source. Hell, there could be a cache of books with these cants available in the val’Vasik enclaves that you could use to teach them to yourself, or if the val’Vasik mentagi survived (if one existed) the knowledge of such things could be found in there.

Of all the southron churches, the Milandric Orthodox Church is probably the closest in terms of practices to the Bastionite Church. While Sabinus was a corrupt, power-hungry soul, the church itself is far more ascetic and less tolerant than the Mother Church of Coryan. While Elandre’ herself may be ascetic and intolerant, the Coryani traditionally are more accepting and we know that the Matriarch has been fighting against her own Church to bring about her ‘Illiirite Reforms’.

Bastionites would probably be very confused by the worship of anyone but Illiir in the southron nations, as Henry has gone on record in saying that really he was the only one worshiped in Bastion. Sure, Xabal would make his followers honour Larissa and Saluwe’ and Hurrian and such, but Xabal himself only knew the Illiirite cants and powers, so they were the only ones with a proper priesthood in Bastion. A number of Bastionites might actually view the worship of anyone else (especially Sarish) to be blasphemy. In this regard, they’d probably be more aligned with Elandre’ val’Assante’s faction in the Mother Church of Coryan as what she wants to do probably mirrors their own upbringing.

So, to summerize (my views, at least): You can probably stay a “Bastionite Church” follower unless Henry says no, if you choose not to the Milandesian Orthodox Church is probably more to your personal upbringing, if you do go Mother Church of Coryan you’d almost have to be a follower of Matriarch Elandre’ as her personal views are probably even more palatable than the Milandesian Church even if her total church is far more liberal.

There are many similarities between the world of Arcanis and the real world. I’ve always thought of it as a priest’s early training requiring them to learn the ‘language’ of the cants (in the same way some catholic priests learn latin), as well as the basic cants they are capable of.

We’ve been told many times that the cants are essentially just a formula; a pattern of words, gestures etc that, with divine backing, create a magical effect. Once a priest understands how cants work and can ‘speak the language’, it would be a relatively simple matter for them to memorize a new set of cants once they gain the experience to learn more.

I didn’t realize the Milandesian Church was more ascetic. I’m surprised since there doesn’t appear to be a tradition of an inquisition associated with it. How do they keep the flock in line?
Its worth remembering that the Milandesian orthodox Church is less than 50 years old. And until Sabinius died, had only been under his leadership. Sabinius, we all know OOC, was not a white hat/good guy. I am not sure how much interest he had in building up the infrastructure of the MOC as opposed to consolidating his own power.

In the Spear of Loghin PCs meet a Nerothian “heretic” from Canceri preaching openly in Ashvan/Milandir. PCs are told the authorities put up with it, largely because (1) they’d rather have it “in the open” where they can keep track it than some kind of underground movement & (2) there is a cultural expectation in Milandir that people can speak their own minds. PCs potentially get in trouble for attacking the Nerothian.

With this in mind it hard for me to see a Milandesian Inquisition taking root. On the one hand I don’t know of anyone Sabinius would have entrusted with the position of head Inquisitor and on the other it would ruffle a lot of feathers. And the guys who have feathers also have halberds and crossbows and know how to use them effectively…

At the same time Milandir is a (much) more conservative society than Coryan. A Milandsian guy’s idea of risque behavior/titilation is going to a public dance and smiling at and dancing next to (without quite touching) a girl. The Coryani version of risque behavior is heading to Savona for a Bacchanalia.

Sabinius may have been lax in holding up public morality. Elandre may be trying to reign in perceived Coryani excess. But the base lines they are working off of are very different.

I would like to know if it would be possible for a Val’Vasik to stay independent as a member of their own church…snip…
I would say yes.

If a player wanted to remain part of the Church of Bastion, then I think that’s that. As a judge I’m certainly not going to tell someone that’s impossible when they’ve paid money to the kickstarter campaign for the privilege of their special character. Rock on. It would be *nice* if they had a IC reason why that was working (another val’Vasik continues to teach you, found a cache of sacred scrolls in the Blessed Lands, Loshnek cut a “special deal” with you in exchange for your soul… whatever). Bear in mind this potentially causes you grief when Smiting and Channeling spells start being tossed about.

If we are talking about cants and churches. I would assume all the cants are the same for each God regardless of Church. If you look at spells there are no church specific spells, or church specific adaptations. Just deity specific.
So a val’Vasik could learn higher cants from Milander or Coryan regardless of what church he/she follows.

Ya, I realize a Val’Vasik could join either church, and that the Cant’s from both churches would be the same. I had two basic questions that spawn some secondary questions.

1. Which Church would a val’Vasik be more comfortable in? (I’m thinking Elandre’s version of the Church, though the mother church may not yet reflect her goal yet – I could see a val’Vasik being a very powerful follower of Elandre) That spawns the secondary question of what paths a Val’Vasik can take – I assume all the Milandesian ones since they can be residents of Milandir, but I assume not the Coryani ones. So no matter how devout (or fanatical) a follower of Elandre’s reforms, they could never join the Inquisition. Is that correct?

2. Is there an option to join neither Church and instead to stay a member of the Church of Bastion and get higher tier Illiriic spells as taught by that Church? This does have a campaign impact for while 90% of their Cants would be the same, we know of at least one (Illiriic specific version of bless weapon) that is missing in other organized churches. (and who knows if they had others? They should!)

Its worth remembering that the Milandesian orthodox Church is less than 50 years old.
In name only, the church is much older than 50 years. I was curious about the difference between the Coryani Mother Church and the Milandric Orthodox Church. I, like many people I knew, believed that the Milandric Church was created a short time ago, and was based on excluding Neroth, Nier, and Sarish. But that is wrong. The ARPG talks about these two churches on pg 77 – 79.
Basically when Elandre had a vision of holy texts lost within the First City…snip…

It is true that the schism started by Elandre’s proposed changes to the Mother Church. None the less I don’t think its debatable that Elandre’s MC looks a lot more like the MC of the last campaign than the MOC.

Consider: 3 of the PoM are marginalized in Milandir. The Fire Dragon is accepted as a deity in Milandir. Milandir has the offices of Bishops and a Primarch rather than Prelates, Archprelates, Pyremen and a Matriarch/Patriarch. And finally the King of Milandir has power over religious appointments.

The Milandric Church •IS NOT• a continuation of the original MC teachings. It has made radical changes to its dogma and reshuffled its lines of organization.

If we are talking about cants and churches. I would assume all the cants are the same for each God regardless of Church. If you look at spells there are no church specific spells, or church specific adaptations. Just deity specific. So a val’Vasik could learn higher cants from Milander or Coryan regardless of what church he/she follows.

I agree with this. But as a practical matter I don’t think you could get access to those Cants w/o joining a faction (or hiring adventures to steal copies for you). Still for the Living Campaign I think this gets hand waved.

An Illiirite is an Illiirite no matter what country or what church you are in there is no difference between their magic.

A val’Vasik doesn’t need to join either church to learn cants. They could walk into a temple of Illiir and ask to learn the higher ones. Remember neither church is Pantheistic so while the CMC and MOC work within themselves collectively to support each god, each god has their own internal hierarchy when it comes to priests and such. Would the Illiirite try to convert the val’Vasik, absolutely. But in the end they are brothers of faith and he would teach him what he would need to learn the next level cants.

Where a val’Vasik would feel more comfortable is a subjective decision based on your character’s personality.

Just because the val’Vasik had Xabal doesn’t mean they knew how to cast Bless Weapon (Illiir). Consider that spell lost. No church that we know of has it. Just as Tempered Sarishian Steel was lost until it’s rediscovery with Haina and the Tomb of Hilur. I’m sure Henry has a pleasant surprise for us when the times comes.

And again there are no church spells, or nation spells.
There spells that are restricted by your race, by your Val family, or by your source.
But a Sarishian priest from Cancari, Coryani and Milander all have the same access. For now.

Consider: 3 of the PoM are marginalized in Milandir. The Fire Dragon is accepted as a deity in Milandir. Milandir has the offices of Bishops and a Primarch rather than Prelates, Archprelates, Pyremen and a Matriarch/Patriarch. And finally the King of Milandir has power over religious appointments.

The Milandric Church •IS NOT• a continuation of the original MC teachings. It has made radical changes to its dogma and reshuffled its lines of organization

You are right that the Fire Dragon was added to this Church. And that the Milandric Church uses different titles. They minimize Neroth and Nier. They removed Sarish and brought him back. Hence why when channeling the are considered different from the Mother Church. But they have not altered their teachings.

But you are wrong about their dogma. The teachings of the human Gods and practices that should be followed by the faithful are the same from 50 years ago.
You can’t say that because Milander is more conservative they changed their teachings. Because Elandre wanted to make everything more fundamental and conservative and Milander broke away. Milander should have seen this as Coryan finally smartening up, reigning in those wild Larissians, and the other excesses Coryani are know to take part in. Instead they saw this as changes to the Canticles of the Pantheon and the Illuminated Perfection, the Codification of the Teachings of Illiir, laid down by the First Imperium and they refused to budge.
Milander put their decision to keep everything the same right in their name Orthodox they have kept their teachings the original way.

The Mother Church of Coryani is not the same. Elandre was successful in pushing through some of her changes even though the larger changes were stopped. And she still wants a lot more.

The Coryani Mother Church is still the Heir to the Pantheistic Church of the First Imperium, but it has changed their teachings in 50 years because of Elandre.
The Milandric Orthodox Church is the continuation of what the Coryani Mother Church was, for the human gods. Their Illiirite teachings, Hurrian, Saluwe, Cadic, Beltine, Sarish, Larissa, Yarris, Althares, and Anshar. They minimize Neroth and Nier but that have not changed their teachings at all.

I understand what you mean Nierite, and I agree with you on your description of the macro level of the church. The two churches are very different in leadership structure and powers given to individual people including their leaders. And as you mentioned which gods they include or exclude.

But I am talking about the teachings from each individual god, not as the church as a whole.
I like your example of Elandre’s influence on the Illiirite church. Let us say she succeed in forcing Illiirites to no longer imbibe or use alcohol during Sunday mass. The Milandric Church didn’t change, so they still do.
Imagine Elandre forced Ansharans to no longer use spiked whips to flog themselves (think Silas from The Di Vinci’s Code) because the Revelations of Illiir states that bodies of the faithful must be unblemished. Well in the Milandric Church this is still perfectly fine for Ansharans.
What if Elandre implemented that to be a Priestess of Saluwe the female must have already given birth to one child because the Revelations of Illiir states to lead those in the worship of the Mother of Gods one must be a mother herself. Milander’s Saluw’s don’t have that rule.

I can go on and on. I know I’m making up all these examples because honestly we don’t know what Elandre did change, but she changed something. And that is why the Coryani Mother Church is different from 50 years and the Milandric one is not.