Religion, Churches, priests, and cants (redux)

@Vault I think we have a fundamentally different idea of what constitutes dogma and teachings.

If you are restricting yourself to what kind of answers you get at a “street level” from what I think of as Sunday School questions like, “How do I live a good life?” or “What sorts of behaviors should I avoid?” then you do indeed have a valid point that Elandre is trying to change the way things are being done. I also concede that Elandre is trying to meddle in the internal teachings of individual temples. I am certain in Milandir they say that they have stayed faithful to the teaching of the Mother Church and that its Elandre that’s making changes …

I think this analysis though is limited and flawed. And the Milandesians are essentially wrong (while I think some drift has gone on in both locations since the days of Patriarch Felician, I see less is Coryan than I do in Milandir).

My arguments operate on three levels.

(One) it assumes you got the same street level answers on how to conduct your life in Milandir and in Coryan 50 years ago. I believe you didn’t. The temples in Milandir have never advocated living like a Coryani. More “conservative” aspects are generally worshiped in Milandir. For example the main branch of the Cadician church in Naeranth and Tralia is based on music (especially Opera). The temples are open and easy to find. While in Savonna and Plexus the biggest Temples are hidden and about knives in the dark. So even though they all previously fit in the acceptable range of the “Temple of Cadic” you just don’t see the level of uniformity among temples I think you are implying. You are much more likely to learn about “the passion of beautiful” music in Milandir and about “necessary gritty violence in the dark” in Coryan. If the two Churches continue to drift further apart it may be that the aspect of “assassination” might someday be as formally marginalized in Milandir as are the whole temples of Nier, Neroth and Sarish. We’ve also seen a significant divide in Larissa’s Temple in Naeraanth (Oracular), Savona (Sensate) and Enpyben (essentially half and half). IMO there is no such thing as a “generic Illirite Temple” that holds the same emphasis and teachings in all places.

(Two) it assumes questions like, “Which gods are acceptable to pray to in which circumstances?” somehow doesn’t fall into street level teachings. And it is clear to me that Milandir has made radical changes in this regard. I find this more significant than the handling of Ansharan flagellants or how much booze one can consume in a socially acceptable way. Maybe you differ. I feel like issue of sobriety of flagellation are things that might be reconciled. I don’t see how the Church of Milandir could ever reconcile with the teachings of the MC (or the First Imperium) without dropping the Fire Dragon. This is NOT a little deal. Then there is …

(Three) It assumes that the Milandesian branch does not also meddle in what is acceptable teachings for the faithful at large. This is patently false as seen by Sabinius unilaterally marginalizing 1/4 of the Pantheon of Man. And as Cody has said Sabinius meddled within (corrupting) the Temple of Hurrian. And the way the Milandesian Church is set up, it appears to be easier for the Primarch to meddle. That takes us to …

@ Cody. I completely agree with your interpretation of the Mother Church as a “Federal” system based on ancient compromises. That said I think you are selling Elandre’s power very short.

True, Elendre is an unbending/unyielding/uncompromising person. Which makes her a poor politician in a wheeling and dealing sense. But so what? Elandre has access to immense wealth (ie. power), can call on the armed might of the temples and faithful (ie. power), can send the Inquisition to ask questions where ever she is curious (ie. power) … she has immense power second only to the Emperor. Does she care that the changes she wants to make are coming at a snails pace … maybe not, its not like she’s going anywhere.

I also would point out that the average person does not “belong” to any one temple. They pray and make offerings to Saluwe for a good harvest. And to Yarris before a sea voyage. They pray to Altheris for inspiration and to Sarish before negotiating a difficult contract. Maybe all in the same week. In Coryan that ebb and flow takes place under the rubric of the Mother Church … and Elandre is the face and leader of that Church. Then of course there is the story of her life. How at great sacrifice she saved the Illuminated Scrolls. And helped (and perhaps some now say led?) the ritual that banished Manetas. Despite the fact that she might be a hard person to like I don’t doubt that because of this she has more “soft power” than anyone else in the campaign, even if many people drag their feet on her social agenda because she is “no fun.”.

Thank you for agree with my limited view val Holryn. (no sarcasm)

I want you to know I agree with your analysis on the overarching differences between the two churches. I claim no contest on that. They are very different from each other. Even if we disagree on the finer points.

Your arguments.
(one) You are right they is no “generic Illiirite Temple”. But Coryan is the most diverse of all nations when it comes to the gods. While Milander may only have Cadician temples to his music aspect, Coryan would have temples to all his aspects. You can’t compare Coryan and Milander and say Coryan worships his Assassin aspect and Milander his Music. 50 years ago Cadician Music aspect priests would have been the same in Milander and Coryan. Now they may not. While Milander stayed the same, Coryan would have changed under Elandre’s influence.

What ever aspect of a god Milander worships, Coryani has the same aspect and usually more aspects for that god. Milander has no unique worship of any of the human gods. The Milandric Church has only limited itself in human god worship.

The Mother Church has all forms of acceptable worship of the human gods within itself.

Even the Dark Triumvirate is based on limiting the worship of Sarish, Neroth, and Nier to aspects that the other churches have minimized or removed. Felican val’Mehan attempted to reintegrate the Dark Triumvirate into the Mother Church by finding the core similarities that exists between their worship, regardless of how different their churches are.

(two) No this is not something the common man would not deal with nor is it something that your local priests would deal with. These are issues for leaders. I’m not talking about this at all. I’m looking at the question “How do I properly worship X aspect of ?” Milander is not changing the answer to this question. They have the gods they like, they have the aspects they like. When you ask this question to the local priests from any temple you will get the same answer in Milander from 50 years ago. In a Coryan temple of the same aspect you will get a difference answer from 50 years ago, because of Elandre.

(three) Sabinius pulled funding and forced them to extremes, he did not tell them how they should worship Hurrian. Elandre is stating how worship should change.

Addition of the Fire Dragon doesn’t effect how to properly worship Cadic’s Music Aspect.
Reduction/removal of Nier doesn’t effect whether alcohol or holy water should be used during a blessing of Yarris on a new ship.
The King’s ability to appoint Bishops, the self serving reasons that Sabinius broke away, or the corrupt action he took after, has nothing to do with what is in the Revelations of Illiir and the changes to the question “How to you properly worship the gods? that Elandre is trying to finish implementing.

Permission was granted by the crown (Osric) during the First LARP set in King Osrics Court. At that LARP all NPCs had a stack of poker chips representing influence. The elori contingent wanted the temples badly. No one else was all that interested as I recall. Other things on the Kings mind included: the fact he might have had a half brother hidden in an Enpyben orphanage. The mystery of who killed Amarita (sp?) val’Holryn who led the griffin riders at Enpyben, Graff Gustov (unsanctioned) reinvading occupied Moratavia and expelling Menisis’ legionares…followed by his (successful) bid to shoulder Roderick aside to become Duke, the reappearance of the BT matriarch and her declaration to move the BT to Abessios, an attempt to replace Sabinius, and the Kings resistance to getting married to Acconia val’Dellenov. And Milandir declared war on Canceri…though in the end that didn’t stick. (That’s just what I remember…)

Suffice it to say, the elori slipped it through by a large amount of horse trading during a very busy summer where Milandesians mostly had other problems. I should also add that Milandir was still part of the MC when this happened.

Suffice it to say, the elori slipped it through by a large amount of horse trading during a very busy summer where Milandesians mostly had other problems. I should also add that Milandir was still part of the MC when this happened.

Huh.
Does that then mean a potential disagreement about it’s “spiritual correctness”?
The King isn’t also the lord of the Church there, I believe.

Correct. I have no doubt that at least some priests of Milandir doubt its spiritual correctness. However as far as we know Sabinius never had a problem with it. The land was granted by the crown IIRC. Though the elorii temples seem to mostly be on the soil of Duchess of Sylvania. Because Sylvania is the rural backwater of Milandir its possible a lot of people in Tralia and Naeraanth are unaware or too far away to make much trouble.

Suffice it to say, the elori slipped it through by a large amount of horse trading during a very busy summer where Milandesians mostly had other problems. I should also add that Milandir was still part of the MC when this happened.

Huh.
Does that then mean a potential disagreement about it’s “spiritual correctness”?
The King isn’t also the lord of the Church there, I believe.

Correct. I have no doubt that at least some priests of Milandir doubt its spiritual correctness. However as far as we know Sabinius never had a problem with it. The land was granted by the crown IIRC. Though the elorii temples seem to mostly be on the soil of Duchess of Sylvania. Because Sylvania is the rural backwater of Milandir its possible a lot of people in Tralia and Naeraanth are unaware or too far away to make much trouble.

Right, plus “Nature Goddess” probably sounds just fine to Matriarchal Saluweans known to buck the crown from time to time.

Hello,

To be clear, it was ONE temple to Belisarda not temples.

The Duchess had her reasons for allowing the temple to be built there, not the least of which was assistance in clearing the section of the Vastwoods that abuts her territory of the twisted abominations that roamed and raided her homesteads.

These creatures were ostensibly beaten back by Laerestri elorii as no further incursions have been reported in the last decade or so.

Cool.
Let’s hear it for community spirit.
Thanks, mate.