Requirements for Talents (and Martial Techniques)

It is clarified in Errata v4.3…

From your Archetype you will gain one rank in all Trained skills gained under its heading. It will also provide you with starting weapon and armor proficiency Talents, as well as additional Talent(s) based upon which Archetype you choose, regardless of requirements with the exception of limited Talents, Talents above Tier I, and racial limitations. Lastly it will give you access to Additional Advancement Options above and beyond the general Advancement Options available to all characters.

So, yes, taking Sweeping Strike without Might 6 is perfectly valid for a Martial or taking Quick without meeting the Quickness requirement is perfectly valid for Expert.

For Paths and Backgrounds, I’m pretty sure that you must meet all requirements unless granted a specific Talent.

No, Paths are the same. (This argument pops up periodically.)

Interesting. So why does the errata only clarify that for Archetypes (with no mention of Paths or Backgrounds)?

Hopefully someone official will comment in this thread. My reading, given the explicit clarification for Archetype and complete lack of mention of Paths (or Backgrounds), is that you must meet requirements for “choice” talents in Paths/Backgrounds (but specifically named ones are certainly granted without regard for requirements).

Ok, so I’ve seen the errata regarding Archetypes. It is an errata to page 92 of the ARG. This is not the paragraph that I was questioning, but thanks for pointing it out.

The Requirements paragraph that I am trying to understand (and discuss) is on page 170 of the ARG.

I think the core of my question is to what degree requirements can be ignored. From the paragraph on page 170, it seems that all requirements can be ignored for Talents provided by Archetypes, Backgrounds and Paths. While I think that some flexibility at character creation might be a good thing, it seems strange that this flexibility extends to Paths.

Also, I can’t help but feel that the intent was to ensure that a character is not excluded from any of the Talents provided by the Archetype, Background or Path, not to provide a requirement free environment for the Talents that you choose (as with Elder Sorcerer’s Apprentice on page 126 ARG) any one Combat Talent or (as with Former Secret Policeman on page 128 ARG) any one Skill Talent. For these open choices, it seems to me to undermine the Requirement system to make these choices free of Requirements.

Even more so for the Paths. For example with Knight Errant (ARG p287), you can choose any Combat Talent. Should this choice be exempt from Requirements? It is not a choice between two Talents. It is an open choice of Talents.

And Martial Techniques are a seperate category again aren’t they? To get one you must select the Talent, Learn Martial Technique, but Martial Techniques are not exactly part of the Talent system. So should the paragraph from p170 ARG apply? I don’t think so. Martial Techniques typically have a requirement of a number of ranks in a melee or ranged skill. But some have Talent requirements and Attribute requirements. I don’t think these should be ignored just because the Learn Martial Technique comes from an Archetype, Background or Path. (Sweeping Strike with low Might) (Spinning Strikes without Two-Weapon Fighting)

The Paths, Kio Duelist, Aspirant Knight, Sword Sage and Seasoned Veteran all provide and open choice Learn Martial Technique. Why should the choice here be exempt from the regular Requirements?

I’m just posing questions here, but I think that in my opinion if the Martial Techniques provided in these cases are exempt from the regular Requirements, this undermines the Requirements system.

Hopefully this quick answer will suffice….if a Talent is granted through Archetype, Background, or Path you are exempted from the requirements provided the Talent is specifically listed

e.g. If you take a Path at T2 that grants LMT:Vital Strike, you can use it regardless of requirements. If the Path grants “Learn Martial Technique”, you may choose any Martial Technique you meet the requirements for (including Tier)….which would disallow Vital Strike.

If applied to Archetypes, this is definitely a change to past rulings (and the errata). I’m less sure on Backgrounds (and even less sure on Paths).

Hi Matt

What you have proposed in your post here is what I was talking about. I think it makes sense.

I don’t have access to the details of when this last was discussed. And while I think it is frustrating to have the clarification cause players to have to change the characters they have been made, I think the rule is fair and holds true to the purpose of the Requirements (which had been overlooked).

Southernskies (who I game with) suggests that 50% or Martial builds and 75% of Expert builds will be invalidated. I would expect the number of players affected by this to be a smaller number. It will, as he says, impact most on Martial and Expert builds because they are the main builds with access to chosen Talents and Martial Techniques. Most will have to choose a different Talent or Martial Technique.

I don’t think that the number of exempt Talents involved here is the problem. I think that an unclear rule has been used to overlook the Requirements necessary to access Talents and by extension Martial Techniques. I cannot think of a reason why these Requirements should be overlooked. They were written into the rules to provide flavour and context for the Talents and Martial Techniques.

The difference here is between specifically listed Talents and chosen Talents.

PS – Unfortunately I have a character who will be affected by this also. He is planning to take the Yhing Hir Horse Lord Path which is broken by the fact that a qualifier for a Talent to take the path (Animal Affinity) is provided by the path as a Talent (so you get nothing). I had taken Loyal Companion as a chosen Skill Talent for the Expert Archetype without the Requirement for Animal Affinity. I guess I’ll change Loyal Companion to Animal Affinity and take Loyal Companion further down the track as an advancement. I hope Yhing Hir Horse Lord gets fixed soon (someone suggested Born to the Saddle to replace Animal affinity). But that’s another story for another Topic on the Forums.