Weapon Training (Unarmed)?

I don’t think there is much that is overvalued quite as badly as Unarmed combat, and while I respect the reality inherent in the “flailer versus brawler versus boxer” comparisons I think mechanical balance is more important.

Incidentally my own stake is that Unarmed governs Natural Weapons, so I now need to go back and make sure my DK knows how her horns work. Oh, and my knight who’s headed towards that Great Sword fighting style -she’s got Ranks, but she might not be proficient.

Also, if I understand this right, that means that if I decided to go with the Gladiator weapon package involving the paired katar -which share Unarmed combat skill with Unarmed combat- I could have ~6 ranks and actually not qualify as proficient in Unarmed Combat …though I’d still be proficient with the katar themselves.

This is about as absurd as the character who gets Weapon Mastery (god’s favored weapon) while having 0 (or the token single) rank(s) in that weapons skill.

My suggestion is dump “what makes sense” in favor of what’s mechanically elegant. Bought Ranks = Proficiency. Unless allocating proficiency slots -without purchasing skill ranks- is a critical balance element, and I don’t see that it is, this IMO is a sterling example of a time to “just let that **** slide.”

The other example that comes to mind is the various iteration of the Master of Many Weapons (probably getting name wrong, apologies). Buying into a Path that provides broad proficiency, but not ranks, is not literally pointless, but as far as investment value goes I can’t think of a worse example. Imagine scrambling for a weapon at a dock and realizing, “you have scooped up a fishing pole, you gain Spear Weapon proficiency, and now have no appreciable chance to score hits nor access to tricks.” And I like the concept.

I was trying to finagle a build using that in 3rd ed; it’s a terrific concept for a street-tough kind of person. But mechanically it’s a strong example trying to make the apparent problem present into an advantage.

Edit: dialing back the sarcasm just a wee bit. But seriously. This seems to be not a particularly necessary distinction between being trained in something’s use and being proficient in it’s use.

Where does it say that you get those free with Weapon Training (Unarmed)? Unless I missed something, each of those is a different weapon requiring its own Weapon Training.

pg 239 under the weapon trait “worn”

Worn – This weapon is an Unarmed Attack. If you are trained in the Melee (Unarmed) skill, you may perform Unarmed Weapon Tricks as well as the weapon’s own Tricks. Weapons of this type cannot be disarmed, and as these weapons are worn they require spending a Complex Skill Action to don or remove. Quick draw does not reduce the time needed to don or remove a worn weapon.

I could be mistaken, but I thought that was part of what this meant.

It’s been clarified in the Errata.

“Page: 239 (Errata) Worn weapon quality Change the 2nd Sentence to If you are trained in both the Melee (Unarmed) skill and Weapon Training (Unarmed), then you may perform Unarmed Weapon Tricks with this weapon as well as the weapon’s own Tricks.”

Note that it doesn’t say you have to have weapon training with the worn weapon. So you could for example only have ranks and weapon training in Unarmed, wear a gauntlet and get the increased damage from the gauntlet (d4 vs. +1) while still using the Unarmed weapon tricks.

With a sweep of his hat,

Paul

I worked up a character in detail for a Pugilist. Designed for Tier 1.5

Martial, Ssressen (Male Black Talon), Templar (Fire Dragon), Milandir
Advances: +5 Combat Skills, +5 any skills, any 2 talents, path (Grandmaster: Unarmed)

SKILLs
Melee (Unarmed) 5(+6 w WM1)
Melee (Unbalanced) 3
Arcanum (Cants) 3
Athletics 3
Battle 3
Deceit 1
Heal 1
Knowledge (Rel) 1
Mettle 2
Persuasion 1
Stealth 5
Wilderness Lore 3

TALENTs
(Arch)Advanced Armor Training & MT Sweeping Strike
(Arch) Weapon/Armor Training (All Milandesian including Unarmed & Ssressen Scale)
(Race) WM 1 (unarmed)
(Back) Wt w/ Flail, Dragon Hide & Strength of Faith
(Elective) Pugilist, Two Weapon Fighting, Smite Infidel
(Any 2) DSC 1, Fighting Style: Vaccus Comminus (tier 1…gives Take Down)
(Path Grand Master/Unarmed) Combat Intuition, Defensive Stance
(Special) Signature Move: either Shield Slam or Mighty Swing

I would set up the stats like . . .
Mi4. Pr7. Qu5. Vi5. Ch6. In4. Lo4. Re4.

Avoidance: 16 (18 w/a shield, modifies skills) Fortitude: 18 Discipline:18
AR:6(4) Stamina: 52 WOUNDs: 4. FATE 4

Important Gear: Holy Symbol of the Fire Dragon & Ssressen Scale. Maybe Large Shield
Spells: (presti): Minor Tricks, Discern Redidue, Witch Lights
(corpus) Cure Affliction, Diminish Fatigue, Restore Senses
(a/b) Immune to Adverse Climates
(ward) Ward of Shielding

That looks like a fleshed out (scary) fisticuffs specialist to me…
(Note that emphasis on utility style spells. This build is not a full spell caster.)
(Note2: the build still needs a flaw…)

I’m not saying unarmed can’t be effective. I’m just saying that it generally has a far higher talent cost than any other weapon (even Double Spear and the like that are supposed to be extremely rare).
My experience has been that with the exception of a few characters who are unarmed-specialists (most being Ansharan gnomes and tooth-and-claw Ssressens), the best use of unarmed is as a way to burn recovery. Heavy attack with a slow weapon, fast unarmed basic attack. I think someone already suggested the unbalancing unarmed followed by the heavy attack, which also works well.

The other benefit to unarmed is that it can’t really be taken away from you (short of literally being disarmed). I’m still waiting for a module where the Heroes have to fight without their weapons…either to escape after being captured, or perhaps at an event where weapons are prohibited. The high cost of those unarmed talents will suddenly seem far more useful.

As an FYI …

As a mod author i looked seriously (and repeatedly) for a way to restrict weapons carried in To Die Alone…just because that’s what (IMO) an Almeric prince should require of heavily armed strangers entering “their” walled town. I didn’t think I could make it work. The gap between “unaffected” pcs (spell casters and pugilists) was too great vis-a-via their “nerfed” brethren. In the end I dropped it and had Prince Walder issue a writ to the PCs to carry arms.

If an author does create a mod with where PCs and their gear are separated it would be wise to mention that in the blurb so players can make intelligent choices about what PC they want to bring.

Eric what about peace bonding the weapons? Their available it just takes a bit more time to get them ready. Could that work in a mod?

Could be an interesting idea. How long does it take to remove a peace bond? A demanding action? More? Less? Can a peace bond be faked? Worth thinking about.