Languages – further clarification needed

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  • March 19, 2014 at 9:23 pm #260202
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    @mith because thus far the entire page of this debate is about what “national languages” means

    March 19, 2014 at 9:32 pm #260204
    frootsnax
    Participant

    Okay, a deep breath and a few thoughts:

    1) I’ve never seen a character “unbalanced” by the languages they do or do not know (Dude, he knows Harnen, that character is so unbalanced!).
    2) Learn Low Coryani or do charades at my tables.

    While I have some sympathies for Hinterlanders who could now “grow up” learning all umpteen versions of “backwater” before learning the languages in common use… I am a little surprised by the debate. National Languages should be 1 language.

    But I’m also totally fine with Mith’s formulation.

    For that matter while I don’t condone cheating I can promise you that I will never *ever* audit your character to see if if you really did qualify to learn Erdukeen and Myrantian.

    March 19, 2014 at 9:39 pm #260207
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    If the backstory for said character is a Yhing hir tribesman that traveled to the Kio lands to improve his sword fighting skills – yes. The system should NOT dictate the role play in such a manner.

    That is a viable option. . . but did that Yhing Hir also have to learn Low Coryani and Milandesian to get there? How did he communcate with the Kio while he picked up the language? There are examples to either end, and I don’t support that they have to learn EVERY language. I’m not against it that ruling here, but I’m not 100% for it. I can see arguments either way and really it only affects people from the Hinterlands primarily.

    What I do object to is the interpretation that “Native Language” means EVERY language of your region.

    Tell me something Cody, you obviously speak English but do you also speak French and the various Aboriginal languages found in areas of Canada? If you don’t, I guess it would make sense that you’re not allowed to learn German, Latin, Chinese, etc…

    Actually, I do speak English and French (though I am not fluent in French as the area I’m in is almost devoid of French speakers so I’ve gotten rusty), and also speak a little bit of Plains Cree. However, if we are using Canada as an example, only French and English would be “National Langauges” as they are the only ones recognized by the Government. Using my co-worker Sai Kiran, however, he is from northern India, and speaks English, Hindi (the “Official Languages”) as well as Punjabi and one other which are regional languages. Despite coming from the upper class of India, he didn’t have much opportunity to learn, say Swahili or Finnish, and instead learned the languages of his native nation first because those are the ones which were more essential to learn.

    However, using your example, there is almost no opportunities for me coming from a Small Town to have learned another language other than French, English, and Ojibway in any official sense. There are native speakers of other languages (my grandparents spoke some German and Swedish, and there were some Ukrainian speakers in my home town too), but nothing beyond learning it from someone who is not an official speaker.

    Move this back at least 500 years ago to the kind of society which the current Arcanis Universe seems to mirror, and I think I would be hard pressed to have access to ANYONE who was not an English, French, or Ojibway speaker from where I grew up. I might have gotten Sioux, Cree, or Assiniboine, and MAYBE Spanish, but I’d have to REALLY go out of my way to learn those tongues.

    I think the issue with this comes from applying too much of a modern sensability. With the Internet and globalization, you can (theoretically) learn any language you want. People in Arcanis don’t have that. For 95% of the population, they probably rarely have gone more than 10 miles from their place of birth in their lifetimes, and even nomads like the Yhing Hir probably don’t ‘get out’ much beyond their own region. Sure, from a Hero POV learning these other languages is cool and useful, but when looked at logically it starts breaking down a bit.

    Just because something is deemed “useful” doesn’t mean it fits the character concept.

    Alas, Character Concept sometimes needs to be leashed by the universe and what is ‘reasonable’ within. It is in-universe reasons why you wouldn’t have an Elorii Sorcerer-Priest of Sarish who also is a Twilight Warrior, even though mechanically you could do it (assuming you took out the cultural and religious aspects of the Arcanis World).

    Is this a perfect interpretation? No. However, the idealized character isn’t necessarily the best option in universe. Restrictive? Yes, but again, I go with what makes sense in universe if possible above what ‘is cool’.

    March 19, 2014 at 9:44 pm #260210
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    So, I’ve refrained from posting on any of the errata at this point as I wanted to get my thoughts in order. I don’t know that I’ve been able to do that but I’ll give it a whirl as work is giving me a brief moment in which to post.

    I feel very strong that, in general, we need to be very careful with what we errata because we want to and what actually needs errata. This is how errata documents get quickly out of control. In my opinion, languages need errata as the current written rule is unclear and truthfully have had conversations myself about just how many starting languages you are supposed to have. None of group us agreed, so that says it wasn’t just one person misunderstanding.

    I like the clarification as it stands in the errata except for the portion saying you must learn all your national languages, instead of choosing just one. As John stated, I also think it isn’t right to force people to take upwards of 5 languages to get to one they want to take. Yes, some people have stated that in reality there is normally limited mobility within regions and so people might not have exposure to other languages to learn them. Normally, maybe the populous at large would have these restrictions; however, these are HEROES we are creating. They are already above and beyond the norm of a population. This is also a game that claims it wants to encourage role-playing options for people but I think that making this list so restrictive at character creation severely limits creativity. Who’s to say I don’t have an older PC who may have some worldly experience before beginning ‘adventuring’? Who’s to say that a PC’s backstory doesn’t have a parent from another country, a parent who could teach the PC a language from said country? Who’s to say the PC didn’t just start speaking in tongues one day and it just happens to be a real language? \";)\"

    I’m really against things that limit role-playing for something that isn’t really an abuse or confusion problem. Does it really matter that the Yhing hir tribesman can speak Kio (because in their backstory they had to travel to Kio for their fighting style, to use someone else’s example)?

    Also, you people are posting too fast for me to keep up! Stop it! \";)\"

    March 19, 2014 at 9:49 pm #260211
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    ok compromise time!!!

    Characters start with a number of languages equal to their Passive Logic, plus any bonus languages granted by their race. Characters must spend at least half their passive logic learning languages from their home region / nation as listed on table XX-XX

    March 19, 2014 at 9:50 pm #260212
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think that is a very good compromise!

    March 19, 2014 at 9:52 pm #260215
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thought (I apologize if this has already been suggested):

    Could these restrictions be moved to the Campaign document and not the Errata? After all, what you do in your Home game is one thing, and these restrictions are only REALLY necessary in the Living Game. If we put the “Have to learn native languages first” to the Campaign document and just clarify the number of languages you get period (Race, National, Passive Logic, Skill/Talent), that should be sufficient for the Errata.

    March 19, 2014 at 9:55 pm #260216
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Thought (I apologize if this has already been suggested):

    Could these restrictions be moved to the Campaign document and not the Errata? After all, what you do in your Home game is one thing, and these restrictions are only REALLY necessary in the Living Game. If we put the “Have to learn native languages first” to the Campaign document and just clarify the number of languages you get period (Race, National, Passive Logic, Skill/Talent), that should be sufficient for the Errata.

    I’m going to do both…

    and come on in a home game the GM can always do (and will do) what they want

    March 19, 2014 at 9:59 pm #260219
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    pedro now define how many languages a human from the hinterlands starts with just from free languages from his race

    March 19, 2014 at 10:15 pm #260221
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think that is a very good compromise!
    I beg to disagree… I still think it’s a stupid rule.

    Why the eff would a Milandisian that doesn’t go anywhere near Mil Takara or the Hinterlands, know Yhing hir – who by all accounts don’t freakin’ like non-Yhing hir anyway.

    Why would some common plebe from Bastion know Auxunite? Do ya really think the rank and file over and Giant’s Hold knew Auxunite and Khitani?

    I have to admit, this is the most trivial thing we’ve ever argued over for…what…4 pages… So I think I’m going to dial it back and post far less frequently in this thread and take my skull smashing to another one.

    But I leave (for now) with this suggestion… Declare a national language per region – or two in the case of Almeric – and require only that language and have everything else be dealer’s choice. Everyone wins… Everyone from X can communicate with everyone else from X (which is what I think Pedro’s intent was originally) and players still have a great deal of choice in known languages (which is what I and others have been pushing for).

    Win, freakin’ win, baby.

    March 19, 2014 at 10:24 pm #260223
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think the only REAL issue will continue to be the Hinterlands, and it is only an issue because the entire region was lumped together for simplicity.

    I can see places like Mil Takara (pre-Milandir) and Sicaris and Pearlspar having ONLY Yhing Hir as their language, I can see Erduk having ONLY Erdukene, and I can see Jappa having ONLY Skohir, but for this to work each of these regions needs to be considered its own ‘nation’ for the 1 language/nation to work. That takes up a lot of page-space assuming the previous format, which is probably why they were lumped together in the first place.

    Perhaps the solution to this would be to add next to the list on page 122:

    Erudkene / N (Erduk starting nation)
    Low Coryani / Y (Censure Starting Nation)
    Skohir / N (Jappa/Skoi starting nation)
    Milandesian / N (Mil Takara starting nation)
    Yhing hir / N (All others)

    March 19, 2014 at 10:32 pm #260226
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I think that is a very good compromise!
    I beg to disagree… I still think it’s a stupid rule.

    Why the eff would a Milandisian that doesn’t go anywhere near Mil Takara or the Hinterlands, know Yhing hir – who by all accounts don’t freakin’ like non-Yhing hir anyway.

    Why would some common plebe from Bastion know Auxunite? Do ya really think the rank and file over and Giant’s Hold knew Auxunite and Khitani?

    I have to admit, this is the most trivial thing we’ve ever argued over for…what…4 pages… So I think I’m going to dial it back and post far less frequently in this thread and take my skull smashing to another one.

    But I leave (for now) with this suggestion… Declare a national language per region – or two in the case of Almeric – and require only that language and have everything else be dealer’s choice. Everyone wins… Everyone from X can communicate with everyone else from X (which is what I think Pedro’s intent was originally) and players still have a great deal of choice in known languages (which is what I and others have been pushing for).

    Win, freakin’ win, baby.

    what your asking for isnt really in the scope of errata

    March 20, 2014 at 1:51 am #260250
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    ok compromise time!!!

    Characters start with a number of languages equal to their Passive Logic, plus any bonus languages granted by their race. Characters must spend at least half their passive logic learning languages from their home region / nation as listed on table XX-XX

    May be more complicated than needed, but workable. I’d also say if you round up or down for odd numbers. I’d probably add a caveat that if you run out of national languages before you run out of slots for them you can pick others. So it would look a bit more like this:

    Characters start with a number of languages equal to their Passive Logic, plus any bonus languages granted by their race. Characters must spend at least half their passive logic (rounded up) learning languages from their home region / nation as listed on table XX-XX. Should a character have already learned all of their national languages they may select other non-restricted languages until they have a total number of languages equal to their passive logic plus those given by their race.

    I went with rounded up for the example, but it could go either way. I also added non-restricted languages just in case there are some languages that may have special requirements to learn and didn’t want people using the wording as an excuse to snag them. Giving them the out in the last line also would keep people from say Altheria from losing out on learning possible languages just because they probably got all of their national languages from their race.

    March 20, 2014 at 2:46 am #260259
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I like the compromise! A lot! I think it goes a long way to evening the options for Hinterlands natives vs the others.

    Since I also like examples, here are a couple:

    Example #1: Val from Altheria, starting Logic 4 (passive 2), starting Linguistics skill 1 rank.

    Compromise Errata Rules:
    * Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. There’s only 1 national language for Altheria, so she has High Coryani + Altherian
    * Passive Logic (2): take 1 from remaining national languages and any other 1; no national languages remaining, so any 2 languages, your choice
    * Linguistics (1): any 1 language, no restriction

    Summary: High Coryani, Altherian, plus any 3 others

    Original Errata Rules:
    Same, since Altheria only has 1 national language

    Example #2: Val from Hinterlands, starting Logic 4 (passive 2), starting Linguistics skill 1 rank.

    Compromise Errata Rules:
    * Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. Gotta pick one of the Hinterlands 4 national languages: Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen. Let’s pick Low Coryani, so she has High Coryani and Low Coryani
    * Passive Logic (2): take 1 from remaining national language and any other 1. Let’s take Yhing Hir as another national language, plus some other TBD.
    * Linguistics (1): any l language, no restriction

    Summary: High Coryani, Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, plus any 2 others

    Original Errata Rules:
    Race: She gets High Coryani + a national language. Gotta pick one of the Hinterlands 4 national * languages: Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen. Let’s pick Low Coryani, so she has High Coryani and Low Coryani
    * Passive Logic (2): Since there are remaining national languages, they have to be taken here. So, take Yhing Hir and Skohir.
    * Linguistics (1): Again, since there are remaining national languages, they have to be takent. So take Erdukeen.

    Summary: High Coryani, Low Coryani, Yhing Hir, Skohir, Erdukeen (no choice in ANY starting language)

    March 20, 2014 at 3:28 am #260263
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I like the compromise.

    John

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