Customized Advanced Maneuvers

Also, this phrase in Arcane Strike gives me pause for another reason. “This maneuver has a speed equal to the higher speed cost between the weapon and spell and a Recovery cost equal to the lower speed between the two.” To me, that means that the Arcane Strike MANEUVER (not the total attack) with a Speed 6 weapon and a Speed 6 spell is +6(6). Maneuver speeds are added to weapon speeds for effecting the total speed of the attack, making it a total of 12(6).

Sorry but that is a bad interpretation of Arcane Strike, for a measley d6 damage extra.

John

John, I don’t think that it is a bad interpretation. I think the interpretation is dead-on. I think it is poorly worded phrase since it uses the term “maneuver” alone instead of a phrase akin to “The total attack speed utilizing this maneuver has a speed equal to the higher speed cost between the weapon and spell and a Recovery cost equal to the lower speed between the two.” Then you could add another Base maneuver for it’s standard cost.

So, using that wording:
Arcane Strike with Elemental Bolt using T-Hammer, +d6 damage as Speed 7 Recovery 4 attack.
with Sweeping Strike: Speed 8 Recovery 6
Arcane Strike with Elemental Bolt using Dagger, +d6 damage as Speed 4 Recovery 3 attack.
with Sweeping Strike: Speed 5 Recovery 5.

Also, this phrase in Arcane Strike gives me pause for another reason. “This maneuver has a speed equal to the higher speed cost between the weapon and spell and a Recovery cost equal to the lower speed between the two.” To me, that means that the Arcane Strike MANEUVER (not the total attack) with a Speed 6 weapon and a Speed 6 spell is +6(6). Maneuver speeds are added to weapon speeds for effecting the total speed of the attack, making it a total of 12(6).

Sorry but that is a bad interpretation of Arcane Strike, for a measley d6 damage extra.

John

John, I don’t think that it is a bad interpretation. I think the interpretation is dead-on. I think it is poorly worded phrase since it uses the term “maneuver” alone instead of a phrase akin to “The total attack speed utilizing this maneuver has a speed equal to the higher speed cost between the weapon and spell and a Recovery cost equal to the lower speed between the two.”

Arcane Strike is a Limited talent available to one Fighting Style with huge pre-requisites. If the intent is that in order to get an additional d6 damage, you practically double the weapon speed with a big recovery, that makes it pretty pointless. You’re already losing any AR of the base spell, suffering Elemental AR to weapon damage, and losing the Primary Spell die. There are a lot of ‘typos’ in Arcane Strike *Using “Basic” instead of “Base”, but I’m sure it’s supposed to work as above, with the higher of the two becoming the overall Speed of the maneuver. Given the example I think it’s clear as well.

Lastly, maneuvers which you add weapon speed to are always listed as Speed: +X (Y) as well.

John

so adding things twice is kinda out of the question, , the example lays it out pretty cleanly.

I think we are inflating thingce via hyperbole and should probably calm down and take a look at the arguments presented.

Arcimous primus is not too difficult to get into. a couple of talents, and a stat requirement, pretty easy for even a tier 1 character

the true power of this ability is to cast “any spell that requires an attack roll” Eric has hit directly on the head hey this is good for things othar than straight up damage.

for the sake of argument lets assume a speed 5 weapon, lots of 1 handed speed 5 weapons

basic weapon attack is speed 5, 0 recovery

a Mighty swing is Speed 6, 3 recovery and is 5 extra damage

an arcane strike (elemental bolt) is Speed 5 Recovery 4 Strain 2 and is a d6 extra damage(CTN 18)

in my book those two things are pretty comparable when you are assuming an average for a d6 is 3.5

Where Arcane strike really shines like the sun is the non damaging spells
Like
Arcane Strike: Enemy of my enemy (Speed 6, rec 5 strain 5 ctn 18)
Arcane Strike: Hostile Empathic link (speed 6, rec5, strain 4 ctn 21)

(I playtested these for delbert when COH came out and I thought they were way too good then and I still do)

so that leads me to another suggested solution, is to not let arcane strike work with anything that targets discipline

I’m not convinced thats a solution I want to advocate for either, its not very elegant in my opinion

I would contend that adding sweeping strike to damaging spells isnt any more powerful than adding it to damaging maneuvers. however adding it to non damaging spells makes it over the top as we are demonstrating with enemy of my enemy, I hit the three peons in front of me and have them go after the caster behind them.

thats my thoughts on the matter

Okay as I have a dog in this fight (Arcane Strike), I’m going to try and address a few things point by point.

First Point: I won’t speculate on how difficult it is to get into, but getting both Arcane Spellcasting (other than Psionics) and Medium Armor isn’t an easy task and requires some careful planning or delaying your fighting style to .
Arcane Spell Casting + Medium Armor Training:
– This means that if you start Arcane Archetype, you need to come by Medium Armor either through one of a few backgrounds (Squire, Former Shining Patrol, Veteran of Altherian War, Soldier of Retribution, or some Templars) or take the Talent.
– If you start as Martial / Expert Archetype, you need to wait until you take your first Path (Arcane Apprentice), and the Arcane Spellcasting Talent (Which can’t be the same advancement as the Fighting Style) or be a Val (They get all the breaks). Experts still need to acquire Medium Armor somehow.

Second Point:
Sure, Mighty Swing is comparable with Arcane Strike (Elemental Bolt) when you use damage. I think Mighty Swing edges out a bit ahead since it’s a fixed 5 damage all the time and 3.5 average is a fair bit lower than that.

Third Point:
Using Enemy of my Enemy as an example, you can already affect 2 targets at 30′ feet away with a simple Adaptation (CTN: 21, Speed +2, Strain +2). It makes it incorruptible but it’s from 30′ away and there are ways to adapt it to reduce the speed. Arcane Strike requires you to be in melee with the target you’re attacking and you can’t target additional foes without making it into an advanced maneuver.

Arcane Strike needs to be good for spells other than damage, as it’s rather lackluster when using it with only damage. The “does not bypass AR” and “all damage becomes elemental and subject to elemental AR” mean that mean you suffer all the penalties of the spell and none of the benefits.

The niche that Arcane Strike fills is the ability to knock someone upside the head with your weapon while at the same time being able to put on some type of status effect. Arcane Strike is fine the way it is.

The only potential problem is that it’s not very costly to suddenly combine that with Sweeping Strike or other ‘multi-target maneuvers’. Therefore, the focus of any discussion should be on “Why is Sweeping Strike so inexpensive to hit 2-3 targets when combined with other base maneuvers.”

To use Mighty Swing as an example, for Speed 6, Recovery 4, you’re doing 15 extra damage.
To use Shield Slam as an example (It has a status effect), for Speed 5, Recovery 4, you’re doing Shield Damage to 3 Opponents, Knocking 3 Opponents Prone, and Pushing 3 Opponents’ clocks by 3.

Now, I wouldn’t recommend making Sweeping Strike advanced, as it makes for awesome combos. I also wouldn’t recommend making Arcane Strike advanced as it synergies well with things like Passing Strike, etc.

I honestly don’t see any problem. Arcane Archetypes aren’t likely to have the Might 6 needed to have learned Sweeping Strike, and Martial/Expert Archetypes (other than Val) need to spend a Path Advancement and another Talent just to get into the Fighting Style, which is fairly costly for the benefit.

John

Simplest solution: Make Arcane Strike (ta) an Advanced Manoeuvre.

Its in effect already combining two ‘manoevres’ anyway (Basic Attack and Base Spell).

OK. I’m glad I posted this before springing it on John tomorrow night like I planed to do.

First thing I noticed is that I didn’t put Acrimous Primus in my build. So, back to the stat block…..

Second thing, I’m going to hold off on using this until there is some form of consensus. Clearly as written Arcane Strike allows ANY Spell. But _my_ BS meter is sounding alarms with this combo. And well consider that I’m the man who’s BS meter runs a little light.

I’m perfectly okay with you using those combos. It’s how Kelb plans to fight, using Arcane Strike with interesting spells like Disorient and others.

Arcane Strike allows any spell with an attack roll. I’m not sure why this is setting off any alarms when you can achieve almost similar results with no investment (Just using Adaptations on the regular spell) and usually at range or already covering multiple targets.

I actually *want* you to use this combo tomorrow. Which Archetype are you using it with?

John
I am always worried when the gm begs me to bring cheese

I’m playing an arcane battle mage of the legion of the watchful hunter.

Trust me, you are the Cheese King and this is not cheese.

John
I’m trying to abdicate the throne. I saw what happened in almeric.

Continue if you wish..

But I always saw the Arcane Strike, Sweeping Strike as a equalizer with casters being able to hit multiple targets (even at range) and deal damage + status effects.

and yes the Shield Bash/Sweeping Strike combo was discovered in play testing….